Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?

[Don]

MEE, did you check out the analysis of the article you gave us a link to? (page 7)

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
you will see that one can receive the Spirit of God before water baptism.

There is no remission of sins without the blood of Christ. This is why water baptism is for the remission of sins. The is where the blood is applied.

You didn't answer my question, and I realize the confusion. It seems to me that you have this concept of saved being some mystical thing that happens to a person who has experienced 1) repentance 2) baptism 3) the Holy Spirit. That is not how getting saved works.

We believe by faith in Christ, and because of that heart changing faith, we repent of our sins because we believe. Because of our faith that leads to repentance, the blood of Christ is now applied and so Christ then sends the Spirit to indwell us. That Spirit is a deposit to us from God guaranteeing our inheritance in heaven!

Simply stated, salvation is Christ giving a dead person life through His Spirit. It is not the result of any actions or steps taken by man. We beleive (repent by faith) and he gives us life (by giving us His Spirit).

Here is what your theology states:

Repentance
Baptism
+Gift of the Holy Spirit
_______
Salvation

But this is impossible because the Spirit is what gives us life!

The Holy Spirit can never be on the first side of the equation, for the Holy Spirit indwelling us is the deposit of inheritance. Once it's guaranteed there is no turning back. You are saved, guaranteed 100% by God! (Eph 1:13-14)

Since we now know that the Spirit is what gives us life and the deposit and seal of our inheritance, we have to move the Holy Spirit to the same side as salvation.

Repentance
+Baptism
____________
Salvation (Holy Spirit Indwelling)

But then we read about Cornelius and this equation doesn't work. His experience went this way

1 Repentance
+ Salvation (Holy Spirit Indweling)
________________
Baptism

So we see that water baptism doesn't come until after salvation. The salvation equation should read this way:

Faith (that leads to repentance) = Salvation (which gives us the Holy Spirit)

With that in mind look at the verses you used in your post again. You keep stating that baptism is a must to be saved, so you read verses with that context around them. Don't try to read your belief into the verses, just look at them for what they say.

Romans 8:10 says that if Christ is in you, your Spirit is alive.

Rom 6:3-4
3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
NIV

We are buried with him, why? We are buried with him in baptism in order that we may live. If we already have the Spirit that makes us alive, how can we die again? Why be buried in order to obtain the life he already gave us? You don't bury the living, you bury the dead, and we are alive because the Spirit is within us!

If this verse means water baptism saves, it also must mean that we don't get life until we have been baptized. We know this can't be true because Cornelius had that life! Therefore we must realize one of two things, this is either talking symbolically or is referring to the spiritual, rather then the physical baptism.

Let us look at Galatians:

Gal 3:26-27

26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
NIV

This says we put on Christ by baptism, but Cornelius put on Christ without baptism, how can this be?

As it says, we become children of God when we believe. Upon that belief we were baptized in him spiritually when we received his Spirit which clothes us.

Does the Bible tell us that the Spirit is what gives us life? Yes

Then how can you say that someone can have that life and not be saved?

The life the Spirit gives us IS salvation. Thats what it's all about. Not some magic formula or follow rule 1, 2 and 3. It's about faith alone in Christ alone, by which we receive the Spirit that gives us life. Because of this Spirit we follow him in an act of obedience to show physically what has already happened spiritually.

Someone can not have the Holy Spirit and NOT be saved. It's impossible.

~Lorelei

[ December 05, 2002, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:

Originally posted by MEE:
[qb]

If you will look at the conversion of Cornelius, Acts 10:45-48, you will see that one can receive the Spirit of God before water baptism.

This much is true for baptism has nothing to do with salvation, and the Holy Spirit enters the believer long before one is baptized. For baptism always, always, follows conversion; otherwise it is not a valid baptism.

DHK

Acts8:14-17)

14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17)Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

DHK, it takes repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Spirit of God.

I don't want to argue with you, the above is what the Bible says to obtain salvation or to at least to be in the Bride of Christ. Without faith in Jesus Christ and His word, one will not be in the Bride of Christ.

MEE

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Don:
MEE, did you check out the analysis of the article you gave us a link to? (page 7)

Yes...why?

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
Acts8:14-17)

14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17)Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I don't want to argue with you, the above is what the Bible says to obtain salvation or to at least to be in the Bride of Christ. Without faith in Jesus Christ and His word, one will not be in the Bride of Christ.

MEE

I don't want to argue the Bible either. But you say that the above text is what the Bible says we need to obtain salvation, yet i don't see the word salvation anywhere in the text. So please, using this text show me what is says in regards to salvation. How do you know from this text that they are saved?

~Lorelei

 

[Don]

MEE - "Yes. Why?"

I take it then, that you either disagree with the analysis I provided, or that you don't care.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Don:
MEE - "Yes. Why?"

I take it then, that you either disagree with the analysis I provided, or that you don't care.

Right!

MEE

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
Acts8:14-17)

14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17)Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I don't want to argue with you, the above is what the Bible says to obtain salvation or to at least to be in the Bride of Christ. Without faith in Jesus Christ and His word, one will not be in the Bride of Christ.

MEE

I don't want to argue the Bible either. But you say that the above text is what the Bible says we need to obtain salvation, yet i don't see the word salvation anywhere in the text. So please, using this text show me what is says in regards to salvation. How do you know from this text that they are saved?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, it shows salvation. You and I just disagree what salvation consist of, according to the Bible.

I was pointing out to DHK, that one can be baptized and still not have the Spirit of God.

It takes repentance, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Ghost to be in the Bride.

MEE

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
Acts8:14-17)

14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17)Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I don't want to argue with you, the above is what the Bible says to obtain salvation or to at least to be in the Bride of Christ. Without faith in Jesus Christ and His word, one will not be in the Bride of Christ.

MEE

I don't want to argue the Bible either. But you say that the above text is what the Bible says we need to obtain salvation, yet i don't see the word salvation anywhere in the text. So please, using this text show me what is says in regards to salvation. How do you know from this text that they are saved?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]SORRY, this was a computer mistake. The computer showed signs of shutting down and I hit the apply button twice. I can't edit.....because it belongs to Lorelei.

MEE

[ December 05, 2002, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:

It takes repentance, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Ghost to be in the Bride.

MEE

Can you explain to me what role The Holy Ghost has in salvation?

How can a person who has the Holy Ghost inside of them go to hell?

~Lorelei

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

Yes, it shows salvation. You and I just disagree what salvation consist of, according to the Bible.

I was pointing out to DHK, that one can be baptized and still not have the Spirit of God.

It takes repentance, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Ghost to be in the Bride.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Not too difficult to understand here, is it? In both cases they heard the word of God, received the Word of God and were saved. At the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit comes and indwells the believer, in every case.
Rom.8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
--They believed, they had the Spirit of Christ; they belonged to God.
Salvation was an act done completely separate from salvation, after salvation, as these verses indicate.
DHK

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei, could you please elaborate on what you mean by "Die in baptism"?

If I am understanding you correctly we do not die at baptism.

I was going off this statement that you made:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Repentance does not come when one is baptized. Repentance is a seperate experience than baptism. We do Die at repentance. We are then buried with him at baptism. Two seperate experiences.

God bless

The Spirit is what gives us life. If Christ is in us our Spirit is alive according to Romans 8:9. Maybe I should have said buried at baptism, either way, why would you want to be buried when your Spirit has already been made alive?

Also, doesn't your church teach that baptism is where the 'blood is applied'? If so, how can the Spirit enter a man if the blood has not yet been applied to cover his sin?

~Lorelei

(I didn't want this to get buried, I still am hoping Oneness will also try to answer the question about how someone can have the Spirit and not be saved.)

 

[Don]

So MEE, you don't care that the author of that article contradicted himself?

Or you don't think he contradicted himself?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Don:
So MEE, you don't care that the author of that article contradicted himself?

Or you don't think he contradicted himself?

David Bernard contradict himself? Never!

Don, you are a Baptist, I think, and of the Trinity belief. So no, David Bernard would not sound correct, in his article, to you or any Trinitarian. He is a believer in ONE GOD and believes as the apostles did....nothing changed! That is why he is called Apostolic Pentecostal. I think you know what the two words represent.

I could go on and on, but this is getting old. You aren't going to change and neither am I.

Carol

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
I could go on and on, but this is getting old. You aren't going to change and neither am I.

Carol

So does that meant that you can't explain how someone can have the HOLY (note what the word means) Spirit before the remission of sins (before the blood has been applied)? Or does it mean you don't care?

~Lorelei

 

[Don]

Then please enlighten me, MEE. Increase my understanding.

How does this:

"Since the only one who can take away sins is Jesus- not by our deeds, not the water, and not the preacher- we call upon Him in faith, depending upon Him to do the work"
(final summarizing paragraphs)

not contradict this:

"Baptism is part of our salvation experience...Thus the proper way to integrate water baptism with the New Testament salvation is to invoke the name of Jesus"
(paragraph 3)

???

(both quotes copied directly from the article in question)

[ December 06, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[MEE]

Don, or anyone else, does water baptism mean anything to a Baptist?

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
Don, or anyone else, does water baptism mean anything to a Baptist?

MEE

Yes, It is a step of obedience in the Christian life taken aftersalvation, that symbolizes what is done at salvation in the believer's life. It is done in obedience to the command of Christ (Mat.28:19,20), and has no salvic properties whatsoever.
DHK

[ December 06, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[MEE]

Don, if you read all of the portion that you posted and look up the scriptures, maybe you will understand what he is saying. You have only posted part of each statement. Better yet, go back and study the whole article.

All of first portion:
3. Baptism is part of our salvation experience (Mark
16:16; 1 Peter 3:21), and the name of Jesus is the only
name given for salvation. "Neither is there salvation in
any other: for there is none other name under heaven
given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
(See also Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 13.) Thus the proper
way to integrate water baptism with the New Testament
salvation is to invoke the name of Jesus.
4. Baptism is a burial with Jesus Christ (Romans 6:4;
Colossians 2:12). The Spirit of God did not die for us;
only Jesus the man died for us and was buried in the
tomb. To be buried with Jesus Christ, we should be
baptized in His name.

All of second portion:
In short, baptism in the name of Jesus signifies that
we trust in Jesus alone as our Savior, and thus it
expresses the essence of saving faith. Since the only one
who can take away sins is Jesus- not by our deeds, not
the water, and not the preacher- we call upon Him in
faith, depending upon Him to do the work.
The Bible teaches that everyone should be baptized in
the name of Jesus Christ, and it reveals that every
reason for baptism is specifically a reason for baptism
in the name of Jesus. Thus baptism in the name of Jesus
demonstrates reverence for and obedience to the word of
God over and above human tradition, convenience or peer
pressure.
In view of the scriptural significance of the name of
Jesus, why would anyone refuse to be baptized in Jesus'
name ? Why would anyone hesitate to take on the name of
the one who died for us and to identify with publicly
with Him ? Why would anyone reject the only saving name,
the name that is above every name ?

Carol

[ December 07, 2002, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

[Lorelei]

MEE,

It's just what DHK says, it is something we do out of obedience to Christ. It portrays physically what already happened spiritually.

Again, I have answered your question, will you answer mine?

~Lorelei