Do we really have free choice?

I read people say that God can behave however He pleases. My friends, I do not see it that way. God must behave within the confines of His very nature. We have done our best to define that divine nature, but I am sure we come up short. We take scripture at heart values, and apply them accordingly. When the scriptures say, Go, and preach the gospel, we go, and preach that gospel. When it says he have responsibilities to feed and care for the poor and needy, we do just that. Why? Because the word of God says so. It is as plain as that. In my signature I give the essence of prayer, and the fact that we depart from prayer before God speaks. Hence, we go off firing blanks. It is our responsibility to obey the word and get on with the business of the Lord. Calvinists are not exempt from any of these commands, indeed, he is mandated by those very commands.

We often violate the very essence of theology, the orderly garden of God's word, and we isolate verses that seem to deny Calvinism. When the whole is understood, it all falls into place. My experience has been that those outside the boundaries of Calvinism fail to understand this very basic principle, perhaps to satisfy their own self importance....I don't know. I can only answer for myself, and last time I looked, I am quite fallible.

Cheers,

Jim

 

***Personal attack edited***Go actually read about Calvinism and educate yourself and then come back ready to either have an intelligent conversation or prove yourself a liar. I recommend R.C. Sproul's "Chosen by God" as a good start for learning about what Calvinists really believe. Until then, I see no use in continuing in vain babbling with you.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I am fully aware of that.

I am a Christian and follow the teachings of Christ.

Buddhists follow the teachings of Buddha.

Gnostsics are those who follow the teachings of gnosticism.

Do not Calvinists claim to follow the teachings of Calvin? Yet the majority have never read Calvin's Institutes. If someone follows the teachings of Calvin and claims to believe what he wrote then how does that not make him a follower of Calvin? How can you deny following Calvin and call yourself a Calvinist?

 

I agree God is the first cause and so do Non-Cals (with regard to most I should say). However, you are placing conjecture and presupposition in your construct again. Yes, Jesus was slain before the FOUNDATION (creation) of the World though NOT before God knew man would sin if left to himself (this is why Jesus would have to be slain). Unless you believe that God decided that Jesus would have to die because He was going to make man to be sinful so He could make a way to save some of them. (I don't think that flys with Calvinistic theology that I know of)
That man would sin and Jesus would be slain before God created is the only part of the construct we can Know concerning the mind of God but even then we don't know if it was simultatious or planned steps and actions He thought through. This is where much of Theology is glued together in what scripture doesn't ACTUALLY tell us but theologians via logic and philosophy as the model to conclude best case senerios for our positions based on limited information from scripture about the mind of God.
God did create man with the ability to obey, BUT God also KNEW (just like today) that man if left to himself (God not intervening) would inevitably fall. Man CAN obey but without God there at all times we will not ALWAYS obey. So after the fall that we came under bondage of sin and what we do now (of ourselves) fall short consistantly. We are in the reverse of the Garden. Adam and Eve were innocent (not perfect- though without sin) but without knowledge of evil so everything they did was in obedience to God. They did not sin UNTIL Satan via the sepent brought contrary knowledge to them. They at THAT point were held resposible what they did with truth (accept it or reject it), and man fell. We have knowledge of evil and unless by Gods grace allow truth (contrary knowledge) to come into our lives. He does this via conscience and nature (physical truths) and the gospel (spiritual truths) Jesus put it this way to Nich in John 3. Paraphrase - How will you believe spiritual things if you will not believe the physical things you have both seen and heard. He didn't say you can not understand or that Nich you are one of mine so join us or even go tell others. But If you wont believe the physical things before you what makes you think you will understand the spiritual things that much be believed BEFORE you can see.

What do you mean by christian universalism...??

God does hold man resposible because man has been given that gift from God. But God KNEW (not foresaw) just what EVERY MAN would do. Gods decree does not NOT allow man to change him mind because man wouldn't it establishes it in Gods planned purpose. Gods decree does unjustly place man under condemnation because God allows man to condem himself by rejecting the truth God offers him by which God will save him. God does call all men by revealing truth to all men but not all men WANT truth and truth is Christ IS GOD and you are not. I am just giving my understaning here without much scripture right now but I have no problem listing what scriptures I have personally studied to come to these conclusions long before I even knew there was more than one type of baptist church or what theology was. I put it this way - Man can not save himself of himself but man can condemn himself because of himself.

 

Your suggestion is much like telling someone to read a book about the Bible rather than the Bible itself. If you were to actually read the Institutes you might get a few surprises as I did.

Why would I want to read what someone else writes about Calvin when I have read most of his works myself.

Have you read Calvin's Institutes? It is available online for free now at http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html.

 

And that brother is the seperator between the Most Calvinsts.
One does it out of duty and not love for the lost
The other does it out of Love and therefore it isn't duty but ministry of reconcilation.

Most Calvininst I meet and speak with state the evangelize because it is their duty. When I ask do they do it because they love the sinner? The answer I have gotten most often is No, I love only the elect. Let the pigs do what they will. That being a partial quote from John Calvin. But those Calvinist who have done the greatest work for God loved people for all were sinners and rejoiced at the conversion of a sould. But the difference was they did it for Loves sake and not duty.

 

Exactly my point. He created the mnaterials to make the car but he did not make the car. If you take a serious look at the OT there are two Hebrew words used for when God created and when man makes.

Sin is man's choice, not God's. If God willed everything then he must have willed sin as well. That is outside of God's character.

 

I asked you such a simple question to provoke your thoughts because to answer that would expose your thoughts that go much deeper than the surface material you have been discussing.

 

And I would be honored to second that!

 

If you have read all of Calvin's books and including the Institutes, you would know that the Institutes were written early on in his life and he made certain changes and adjustments in his theology in his later writings, especially his commentary on Romans.

We don't mimic Calvin in all things, As Baptists we do not accept his covenant baptism, but we insist on believer's baptism by immersion and immersion only. We do not adopt his doctrine of the local church. As has been stated previously, Calvinists accept the title just as Baptists accept that title. It is convenient, but certain things must be understood as Baptists. We all use texts of one sort or another, but this does not exclude the scriptures. We base all things upon the very word of God. We also benefit from those who have gone before and previously tested the waters. Why try walking on the water when we don't know where the rocks are? Why blindly try to reach a destination without a map?

Cheers,

Jim

 

People say alot of things, but that does not mean they speak for alot of people!

 

Our Lord Jesus Christ has instructed us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Therefore we love, we share, and we do all that we do out of love and obedience for the Lord. Love for the Lord leads to love for the lost. It is not duty to the Lord, it is love, which is evidenced by obedience, for the Lord. There is a big difference in the terminology there.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Or use those same materials for another purpose but that brings us back to did God know what I was going to do with what I had... :laugh:

 

Did you not read the following quote?

Where is the exception in his statement?

 

Explain that to the Calvinsts with who I have spoken.
They will tell you they do what they do out of love for Christ NOT the people.
We are to LOVE BOTH. - What are the two greatest commandment upon which ALL the law hinge.

You stated: You do what you do because you love God and that leads to love for the Lost. My question is do you love ALL the lost or just the Elect lost.