Do we really have free choice?

I have known of some true hyper-Calvinists in history and in present day time. These are the Jonahs in the belly of the whale praying for the destruuction of those they hate. These are those whom William Carey rebuked for their lack of evangelistic zeal. These are the Fred Phelps of the world. They have rejected one of the hallmarks of reformed theology, however: The authority of Scripture. They are disobedient to God and his word and, therefore, disprove their love for God. They do not represent five point Calvinism, or even represent calvinism at all. If we truly love God, then we are obedient to his commands to love everyone, even if they be an enemy of God. I don't know who the elect are. That is up to God. My job is to proclaim the Gospel and get out of the way.

Joseph Botwinick

 

If you ask a typical Calvinist during a theological debate why he prays or witnesses, he's almost always going to reply "because God's Word tells me to - it's my duty." In theology, this is the first order motivation for all good works in the elect - because God commanded it.

However, in dealing with personal motivations, which we also accredite to God's working (he has put it in me), then we talk of our love for the brethren, our pity of the lost, our desire to see the salvation of our kinsmen according to the flesh.

Reformedbeliever has revealed his heart to us in this thread and we see how the Love of God has motivated him to action.

This is different than Helen's obssession with sentiment. IMO she does not weigh scriptural truth against her preconceived sentimental prejudices against the sovereignty of God.

Reformedbeliever's struggle is just that - bringing the weight of truth against his emotions and trying to bring them in line with it.

 

You are making the assumption that God is the ONLY Cause. The first cause it that God does something first. Thus the term 'first' which implies there are others.
We are resposible because of what we do with the truth given whether a little seed or a mountain of it. The fact God knew what 'choice' we would make neither negates that 'choice'. We can understand the one - we can make a choice. And we can understand the other God decreed what will happen. But it is astonishing to try to see them co-exist. But both do! God decreed what He knew our decision concerning a choice would be. This has nothing to do with looking ahead it is perfect knowledge of all things. You still choose but God knows already your choice. Not God knows your choice because he would allow you to do anything else.

Much of this I answered above but you are still overshadowing one view INTO the other. God made Adam, with the ability to sin (or choose to sin). Who said there is no choice?? God being the first cause is not the causation of sin. God being the first cause allowed Adam to have his first chioce. God did not make Adam choose sin but God knew what Adams choice would be. But don't forget God was the first cause that ALSO would have allowed Adam to say no, since God told Adam what NOT to do.

But without knowledge of Truth there IS NO choice.

God is the first cause in a believers life but we can also sin. Does that mean that God caused the Believer that He predestined to be in the image of His Son to sin having no choice??

I was only using it as a comparision to my view.

Would it be sane for a non-Cal to say I would rather you stay Calvinistic than go that way.

Would it not be...

The true choice is the fact they DID choice and would CHOOSE no other way.
A choice is between to opposing or distinct options. We can accept or reject. What we do is a fact already established because we WOULD choose it and were not MADE to.

No, they can see truth as Paul states in Rom concerning those without the law or Gods word ...Still have NO excuse due to nature and our conscience that reveal a small portion of this truth. Jesus is the light that Lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the World. All men can see truth but what will they do with it??

You lost here...

I would say John chapter 3 answers this. John 3:12 show Jesus slightly berating Nich. but says 'if YOU wont believe the earthy (physical) things I have told you, how will YOU believe the spiritual.
This chapter shows Jesus referencing what WE do to be saved but what is of most note is the illistration of the serpent being lifted up. When you read the story you realize that God gave them the option for what to do to be saved. Some did and some didn't.
He also states:

Notice some who are in darkness...SEE... but want no part of the light. They do evil (choice made)
BUT...there are those who come to the light that DO (choice made) that all may see what was done in God.
God was the first cause - the Light (Jesus IS that light) and Truth. Man will not come to God of himself but God must come to him.

If God is the decider of all things (no real choice) and the elect are chosen for salvation out of many then why does Gods wrath abide on them still??
Because they do not believe yet. Belief is the seperator of the saved and non-saved. See what it says "...he that believes not will not see life..."
The consequence of not seeing life is due to one not believing and shows Man has a Choice IN God but not without Him. He is the first cause of our salvation.

 

Was that statement true 99% or 1% of the time?

 

Your statement is without basis.

 

Heb. 13:7, "Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith."

The fruit of Presbyterianism--liberalism today.

 

Master we have toiled all day long and have caught nothing.

You sure got that right, ***Insult removed***

 

You seem to be doing very well on your own.

 

Yes.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

HankD​

 

The only answer is that God is outside of time and sees all. There is no other answer. Why would Jesus stand as a slain Lamb if God had not seen the "fall"? He gave Adam the choice, He looked at how Adam would react. If God was able to see His son slain before the foundation of the world, then at the same time, saw the fall of Adam, at the same time saw you choose Christ. He didn't decree Adam to sin, but gave him a choice but yet God saw the end from the beginning all at once. You want to put it in succession but it just don't work that way. He give His son as a sacrifice. We are the only ones who use time. Time was created for man, not God. If God has seen my death, what great thing is it that He saw my life.
You are trying to get an answer that fits mans ways and forget it is the mind of God which no man has known.
How much trouble do you have trying to define The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost being three but yet are one? Well the question you keep asking fits into that realm of thinking, which belongs to God Himself.

 

You have an obviously different tone of voice with Old Regular than you do when you're here in the theology forum. So I know you're capable of a charitable conversation. So what did we do here to cause you to have such an attitude?

 

What haven't you done. If you notice old regular speaks to me as a brother in Christ. One Calvinist will say something about a brother and then all of you join the bandwagon, causing the person on the other end to defend himself. I don't like being called a liar or names and when it happens I respond. When I do, you all jump on the wagon regardless if your man is right or not.

For instance:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Joseph, you have said all along that he had no "free will".

We spend our lives violating the free will of sinners trying to get them to believe in Jesus Christ by preaching to them to believe. Calvinist have no reason whatsoever to do that. I really can't understand a Calvinist preaching to a lost and dying world.


Bro Bob, you're licked. Admit it. Joseph spanked you!

You came in just to say that. Why???????

 

Of course you don't, you are Calvinist and do not believe in a choice.