Do we really have free choice?

Not a good analogy IMO.
What about the analogy of illegal drugs and the dope dealer?

He did not make the dope.

Some one in South America or Afghanistan grew the poppies, another processed them into the dope, another transported the drugs, another distributed them.

The point is that ALL are guilty down to the very source of the materials.

RE: The permissive will of God: I already quoted one verse with but didn't label it as such:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:​

Winked = overlooked (that is He permitted or overlooked certain errors --thinking that the Godhead is like gold, siver or stone-- and the gentile idolatry which came out of the ignorance).​

Now with this new knowledge of His essential nature, He commands all men everywhere (not just the elect) to repent, implying free will or at least the ability of all men everywhere to actually repent.​

God permits what He doesn't like or that grieves Him:
Mark 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.​

HankD

 

Reformed, I addressed your opening post specifically in the second part of my post. Surely you have the time for that?

 

I agree with most if not all of what you have said in this post. With the rest (which is mostly by implication) I, as you, honestly have had problems.

I have given Scripture (Acts) which gives the impression that we do have power to make decisions freely. On the other hand there is an abundance of Scripture which indicates a "5 point theology" so-called.

To say that God either does not know what His will is, or He alters it at our request or as the result of our actions, seems an absurdity.

However there are Scripture such as:

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

To label and dismiss passages such as this by calling them "anthropomorphisms" does not leave me with that sense of satisfaction that I have by simply accepting it as it is without an anthropomorphic interpretation. Did He Repent or not? Was He grieved by our actions or not?​

As an alternative to an "anthropomorphism" I suppose we could say that both the repentance and the grief were the result of His decree and as the time continuum passes and He enters into it, He complies with His decree.​

But that seems alien to the greater bulk of Scripture.​

We are made in His image and likeness.
We are told "grieve not the Holy Spirit". ​

Other basic "problems" I have had over the years:
The origin of evil.
The apparent conflict of the Sovereignty of God and Man's responsibilty thereof.
The Impecability of Christ.
And many others.

Now that I am a senior citizen, this is where I put these "problems":

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.​

I believe it was Allan who quoted Spurgeon: And to paraphase it out of the words of an old hymn "further along we'll know all about it".
Probably on the other side of heaven if even then.

In the meantime, Thanks be to God for the unspeakable gift of His incarnation.

NAS Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.​

In addition, I believe we can all safely ask and correctly answer this this rhetorical question:

Genesis 18:25c ...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?​

HankD​

 

This is a side issue but I believe there is a place of "perfection" for the child of God and that it is achievable:

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.​

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:​

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.​

1 John 4
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.​

I don't believe "perfection" means sinlessness in the usual sense but "sinless" because we are sensitive to the grief we cause Him by our present tense sins and quick to respond to that grief when we sin and are immediately cleansed at their acknowledgment.​

NAB 1 John 1:9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.​

KJV 1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.​

As each idol of sin is toppled we go on (hopefully) to bring down the next.​

KJV Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

HankD​

 

They did freely crucify him andat the same time it was Gods predetermined will. I do not need you to look something up for me. I am interested in scriptual backing for your view which is most certainly implied in both your question and your username. Gods predetermined will does not negate mans free choice. Genesis 50:20But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Is God the author of evil ?

The idea that if we do something contrary to what God would intend then He stops being omnipotent is false. Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Matthew 19: 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Just as sin was accounted to all men : Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So did Jesus die for all men :2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Something that is interesting to me is that the only way Calvinists can make their points is by changing the meaning of verses and the very words themselves.

reformed wrote: I know when we make choices, we make them seemingly freely.... within the scope of influence and personal preference... but God puts the factors in place where we will always choose in a manner that will be consistent with His decreed will.

This, then changes the meaning of choice, not to mention the meaning of 'free.'

Calvinists must then deal with, somehow, the multitude of passages in the Bible that tell us to seek God, to choose what is right, to follow His law, etc., just as though we would really be able to do these things! In short, Reformed Theology makes mash of the message of the Bible regarding the character of God and our God-given ability to actually and truly choose Him or other. These passages were not put there to taunt us, but to encourage and push us along towards choosing Him.

Yes, He knows what we will do, but that does not make Him responsible for us doing it.

If I walk up to Barry and say "I love you", I KNOW he will respond saying he loves me, too. I know that for sure and for certain. But that does not mean I have caused him to say it.

I have a sister who is into Eastern Mysticism and teached Aikido. She has found 'inner peace.' However, if I talk to her about Christ, I KNOW how she will respond -- she will tell me not to bother her with my religion for she has found her own truth. I know for sure and for certain that will be her response. But I did not cause her to say it.

Now, I know those two responses because I have seen them/experienced them before -- several times, to say the least. But God does not need experience to teach Him something, as He knows everything. That, however, does not mean He causes any of us to do what we do. He knows what we will do, but the responsibility for what we do is squarely on our own shoulders, not His. He has provided a way out in Christ and any one of us is able to choose that direction.

Anyone who WANTS that will be given the means by God to get it. But it is the wanting that is freely chosen, no matter the ability to follow through. This is totally in line with the biblical directives, start to finish.

 

Choices are influenced, but influences are not necessarily determining factors. As a teen I was 'influenced' time and time again regarding immoral behavior. That did not mean I had to indulge in it. As an adult, I am certainly influenced by the world around me, and there are times when, sadly, I give in to those influences. But I am learning not to! Similarly, God has placed incredible influences in the life of each person which would direct that person to HIM. And most seem to reject such influences and prefer their own way.

The rich young man wanted salvation, and was given the means, and refused it. Nicodemus was shown the way and evidently followed it, for he was there with Joseph of A. to take down Jesus' body from the Cross.

Yes, if a person wants salvation, God will show them the way. He will even lead them to Jesus! And Jesus has said clearly that He will refuse none the Father brings to Him.

 

Instead of telling me what I think, why don't you ask me? You are wrong on both counts, actually. Man's will is not above God's. However, God's will was to give men a choice, for only then could love be expressed or obedience mean anything.

Nor do I think the Father gives everyone to Jesus. However anyone who wants the truth and seeks after it will be led to Jesus. Most people seem to prefer a/the lie, which is heartbreaking.

 

Jer. 29:13, "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

 

One departed from Jesus who did know Him.

 

I see no efvidence of that. What I do see is Nicodemus' inquiry of Jesus.

John 3:1, 2, "Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; his man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

He addressed Jesus as a rabbi not a savior.