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Do we really have free choice?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by reformedbeliever, Dec 21, 2006.

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  1. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    So true. He is sovereign after all.

    O.K., I'm really loggin off now. I mean it.
     
    #81 J.D., Dec 21, 2006
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Deal with the scripture that has already been quoted exegetically, please. No sentimental meaningless stories please.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #82 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 21, 2006
  3. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Red haired people should not be allowed to speak to one another :smilewinkgrin: :BangHead:
     
    #83 Joe, Dec 21, 2006
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Californians should not be allowed to speak...period.:laugh:

    I am a blonde, BTW. No blonde jokes...cause so is Helen.:applause:

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #84 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 21, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well, while you were talking the kid run out in front of the car and got run over.
     
    #85 Brother Bob, Dec 21, 2006
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Not my kid because I over-rode his free will decision and grabbed him by the arm and pulled him back to me.
    :smilewinkgrin:
    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #86 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 21, 2006
  7. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    That was the dad's choice to grab the son not God's.
     
    #87 gb93433, Dec 21, 2006
  8. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    That's funny!! :tongue3:
     
    #88 Joe, Dec 21, 2006
  9. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    God in His sovereignty created man with a fee will.

    If everything was purely God then why is that God cannot get the Gospel out without a preacher. Is He incapable?

    So many misinterpret the severeignty of God to mena man does nothing and is nothing. He is simply a robot.

    God's plan was that He made man the way he is and gave him the fredom to choose or reject Him.
     
    #89 gb93433, Dec 21, 2006
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You right Joseph. When the roof of a mine if falling the Calvinist are 1/4 mile ahead of the rest running out of there.
     
    #90 Brother Bob, Dec 21, 2006
  11. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Really Bro. Bob? You work in a mine? You were there when it was falling in? Or are you lying?
     
    #91 reformedbeliever, Dec 21, 2006
  12. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Maybe it was just a little white lie? How about trying to answer the question with scripture or deal with the scripture already given, rather than trying to close a thread?
     
    #92 reformedbeliever, Dec 21, 2006
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Guess I missed some three or four pages since I discussed the permissive will of God, which is a landmark viewpoint of reformed theology.

    Now, we must depart from soteriology when discussing the free will of man under God's permissive will. We will consider only the human considerations and not moral choices under justification.

    Man's nature provides an intellect, sensibility and will (A.H. Strong, Reformed theologian and Baptist). He has the mind to know things; the soul feelings (desires, affections); and the will to choose, ends or means, excluding the moral choice of selecting good or evil. The soul may reason, but it cannot reason until motivated. That motivation unto eternal salvation flows from God in His sovereignty.

    We have two spheres of operation. God is absolutely sovereign, or he is no better than an earthly king making demands upon his subjects. The second sphere of operation is His permissive will. This is where man makes choices, motivated by his own depraved soul. It is obvious from the beginning that God gave permissive choices beginning with the angels, and in particular, Satan. Throughout scripture we read about the devil doing "his" thing, but always under the permissive will of God. Thus far and no further. I am not going to insult your intelligence by quoting here a plethora of scripture verses. I shall assume you have done your own reading.

    We must account, therefore, for both the absolute sovereignty of God and man's will. I do this by drawing the two circles, one within the other. Man has relative freedom of will, but always under the absolute sovereignty of God. This we call the permissive will of God.

    Please draw the two circles and you will instantly see the context. Man is free, but always under the sovereignty God. It is like the child being led by the parent by holding hands...it is a relative freedom under parental control.

    Election and predestination does not enter this picture, as man has no freedom to choose his eternal destiny, and we are only talking about the nature of man in his domain on earth.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #93 Jim1999, Dec 21, 2006
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I was raised by a coal mining dad and we were called out of school several times in my life because the roof had falling in and kill bunch of men.
    I have 2 uncles who were drilling the blasting holes for next days work late at night and the mine for some reason blew up and blew them all to pieces. Their brains were on the coal mine walls and had to be scooped off. They couldn't open their caskets because there was not all of them there. Thats just one mine story from here.

    I never posted nothing yet that would close this thread but if you keep running your mouth it could happen. Don't be accusing me of lying. It has always been told in this area what I said.
     
    #94 Brother Bob, Dec 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2006
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Which station in life is being referred to in verse 22:

    Verse 22

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #95 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 21, 2006
  16. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Thank you for the time of the explanation Jim. I understand this doctrine, but I have problems with it. I do not think we have to appologize for God's decrees. I don't have a problem with the fact that we as humans simply follow our outside influences which determine our choices, and God in His providence causes all those influences. I know someone may say that will make God the author of sin, but not so. Its like the analogy of an automobile. God didn't make the auto, but He provided all the material for it. Man manufactured it. Same way with sin. I may not be articulating this the way I'd like to... but maybe someone can help me out here.
     
    #96 reformedbeliever, Dec 21, 2006
  17. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    I suppose the ones with their brains blown out told you.
     
    #97 reformedbeliever, Dec 21, 2006
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    That is a goofy question. God can do whatever he wishes and effect salvation in any manner he wishes. He has chosen to use his elect to preach the Gospel. But if we were to remain silent, which I don't believe any true Christian could, then the rocks and the hills would cry out for the glory of God.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #98 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 21, 2006
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Bob,

    Are you getting tired? I didn't understand that at all. Wanna try again?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #99 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 21, 2006
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Who were the Calvinist who were a 1/4 mile ahead of the rest running out of the mine? names and sources please?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #100 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 21, 2006
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