Do we really have free choice?

Your heart bypasses are irrelevant to your slander. You could back it up by listing the men's names and giving some sort of source for your claims. Perhaps, we might even look them up and ask them. What do you say? If you can't substantiate your claims, then you should not make them.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Just took your word for it. Maybe I shouldn't have, but the truth hurts don't it. Why [did] you [removed unkind name calling] tell it on here anyway?

I think you need to play with your drum sticks and leave the bible to others.

I have plenty of proof of the other story about the mine if you want to come here I will take you to their families.

You call one slander and the other one is different. That proves your heart is evil and you just want to be a mean person to everyone around you.

[Moderator's note: You guys need to watch the name calling or risk 10 day suspensions.]

 

Joseph,

I've been watching this thread. Bob has twice informed you that the story he referenced was told to him by his father (who was a coalminer)and that his father was talking about his friends/co-workers that were Calvinistic in their Theology. Now I suggest you let it go.

 

1. I have made no such statements about my wife. You are slandering me and my wife. That makes you a liar.

2. All hail Pope Bob.

Joseph Botwinick

 

If you are willing to take the second hand word of his father whom you have never met, that is fine by me. Whatever you want to do. I, on the other hand, wish to see something more substantial than this. I am happy, however, to let it go.

Joseph Botwinick

 

We are held accountable because God knows how we will choose.
The choice IS ours but it was established in eternity as THE fact of what WILL be.
It doesn't negate choice when that choice is established to be. It is the fact that we would make no other choice that what God knew would be made.

 

We are held accountable because God knows how we will choose.
The choice IS ours but it was established in eternity as THE fact of what WILL be.
It doesn't negate choice when that choice is established to be. It is the fact that we would make no other choice than what God knew already was to be made.

However I agree with Spurgeon on this one.

Gods sovereignty and mans responsibility will most likely never be hammer into one in this life but will be seen coming together in God.

 

Because you hold to a theological defintion that is incosistent (IMO) with the Biblical context of God and His sovereignty and Man and his responsibility.

The fact is NNE knows HOW God thinks. Or even HOW God establishes based on His knowledge or purpose or plan. All we know is that He did! How can we hope to understand Gods mind and how it worked it all out with our finite brains.

Must of this is logic, presuppositions, assupmtions, and conjecture (and no real scriptural support) that help hold or mend certain theological argument together. When without them at best we see holes that lead to an incompleteness in our understanding of what and how God did what He did at worst and at best shows we are not as ALL knowledgable as we may think.

 

This thread reminds me of the story about the man who was drowning and God sent out a boat to rescue the man. The man told the first boater that he was praying that God would save him. So he sent out a second boat. Again the man turend down the boater's help. So when the man drowned he asked God why he did not save him. God responded by saying that he sent two boats to save him and he rejected both of them.

If a child were in the street and a car was coming I would reach out fast and grab the child. I owuld not spend even a faction of a second thinking that God would save that child from the cars if I left him there.

There are times when the Calvinist checks his brains at the door and throws away any possible wisdom only to be left depraved and destitute. While the Arminianist lacks a trust for God and trusts himself more than God. Both are wrong and not in accordance with scripture.

The Calvinist does not need to pray because he knows that God has people like robots and his prayers will make no difference. The Arminian does not pray because he must work harder so more people are saved. The Calvinist watches people get saved while the Arminianist shares the gospel.

The person who lives accoprding to scripture knows and understands God's sovereignty and prays according to God's will while God listens and responds with an answer. The person who knows God also understands that sharing the gospel is god's method of delivering the message of salvation.

 

Yep I have.
Yep I do.
That is where your understanding in lacking, flawed, and in error.

Unfortunately that is a VEIW POINT that has never been bibically substantiated and found as IRREFUTABLE Truth and thus it is a view OF the Truth. So...I guess you would say that Augustine, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and other well known reformers were 1 point Arminians as well as these men in particular held to Christ's atonment was made for ALL men:

 

These are all patently false statments. Calvinists pray because we are instructed to pray by our Lord. It is part of our relationship with our Lord and our God, and not a want list to Santa Claus. If you look back on the many great awakenings of the puritans, William Carey, Spurgeon, etc...you will see the ignorance of your last statement. Calvinists do share the Gospel. They don't, however, compromise the Gospel with the wisdom of men in order to try and convince the lost that Jesus is the better way. It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict the elect of their sin and draw them to Christ. Not mine. God merely uses me as a vessel of his grace while I share the Gospel. Your statements are altogether ignorant and untrue. I think you probably know that since you are a rather intelligent person and have been around a long time. I don't think, however, that this knowledge will keep you from repeating the same falsehoods over and over again. Who knows? Perhaps, if you say it enough times, you might even start to believe it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Too many to read through. If none presented as this, perhaps it will help some to see it is we that choose our own destiny.

Romans 8:27-30, "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

My Social Security increase this year is 3.3%. Payment by the month will begin on January 1, 2007. This is "foreknown", and will happen. It is therefore "predestined" for I qualified for it myself. When the time comes, I will receive that which is promised (God willing).

Verse 30 tells us He "called" those whom He "predestinated". How did He predestine us? By foreknowing we had chosen Him, by searching our hearts. We heard His call and we answered; He heard our hearts reply and foreknows we are predestined to be (future) conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We chose Jesus Christ, thus we are "predestined", not that we sought out God or did a work of our own, but because He called to us, and through the faith of Jesus Christ we are now today justified, and we will receive our glorified bodies, and will be as He.

He called, we accepted His gift, He searched our heart and He knows then predestines us to be conformed to His SON. I John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." We in the "Body of Christ" are sealed, predestined to be like him.

 

May not be your Job but it is the preachers. I have to admit though, we don't play drums.

Romans, chapter 10

"14": How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? :BangHead:

Mark, chapter 16
"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts: 14
"23": And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

 

HMM. I admit that I am not quite sure what repeating falsehoods and compromising the Gospel has to do with being a preacher. Perhaps, someday, if I am a preacher for 35 years, I will understand it better like you apparently do.

Joseph Botwinick

 

As far as you preaching for 35 years, I don't think you will ever make it. Let ever man abide in his own calling.

Romans, chapter 10

"8": But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

"9": That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

"10": For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

"11": For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

"12": For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

"13": For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

"14": How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

"15": And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

"16": But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

"17": So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

"18": But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

You continue to place God in time when God is outside of time. Think of it in a way as God saw them both at once. Jesus was not actually slain before the foundation of the world, He just stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world the same as Adam was seen fall before the foundation of the world. God saw both at once.

 

When I put a cow out in the pasture the cow has no choice but to do what I want. However the cow has the choice to freely eat within the boundaries of the fence. I did not make the cow though. God gave me the role and responsibility to care for the cow. So are we to care for new believers knowing that God causes the growth. Anyone knows that children who are not properly cared for when they are young have learning deficiencies throughout their life. It is a good thing teachers are not strict Calvinists and leave the teaching part of life up to God. Of course we know that some pastors preach on Sunday and leave the rest up to Satan and his influences.

The Calvinist does not believe James when he says to care for the poor because they believe that the condition of the poor is God's will and it is God's will to leave them unattended. Could it be that is the reason why the religious folks are not reaching people like they once were. There was a time when Baptists cared a lot for people.

Some of those Calvinists need a case of being homeless and without a job. I have never seen a Calvinist who was hungry ever refuse help in those cases.

 

Same to you reformed;

I am going to the Gymn now. I will return around 1:00 pm