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Do we really have free choice?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by reformedbeliever, Dec 21, 2006.

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  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    gb,

    Either you are too ignorant of the truth to know any better or you are flat out lying. Which is it? Calvinists follow the commands of Scripture because God told us to. Whatever God has willed for all of humanity is in his hands. That is not for us to decide or judge. It is for us to obey God with our service, for the Glory of God alone.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #161 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 22, 2006
  2. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Well I have to agree with you Joe. One or the other is true. He certainly misrepresents true Calvinism. Hense my lack of reply to him.
     
    #162 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  3. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Yes.

    Man wants God to conform to man's notion of justice.

    Let's take for example the idea of democracy. Today, we readily declare that no man, whether King or dictator, has the right to live above the laws of the land (a constitional republic). Why? Because they are mere humans.

    But we can not say that of God. God has the right to rule and reign as He sees fit. Because He is Just, everything he does is just, no matter what he does. Therefore, justice should be defined as "that which God does". The exception to justice is mercy.

    Arminius said this makes God a "tyrant". While God is answerable to no man, and may rule by His own whims if he so deems, this does not of necessity make God "mean" at all. The fact that he doesn't exercise His wrath at any given moment is proof of His benevolence.

    The only way we humans can bear the thought of God's wrath being poured out on the vessels of wrath is to remember that no one will enter perdition without having shown evidence toward God of their reprobation and they will be filled with rebellion and hatred toward God.

    This is a terrible principle. "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..." It is frightening.

    The greatest sermon ever preached:

    http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/sinners.html
     
    #163 J.D., Dec 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2006
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Amen, 100%, Amen!:thumbsup:

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #164 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 22, 2006
  5. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    The problem is J.D. I love people. It is hard to bear the thought of people spending eternity in hell, for something they could not have done otherwise. Jesus commanded us to love. There are some I'd like to try not to love...lol... and many who may have a hard time loving me. I still can hardly bear the thought of anyone spending eternity in hell. Therefore I preach the Gospel.
     
    #165 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  6. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Reformed, to quote a certain (in)famous person - "I feel your pain". I have also been tempted to sort of throw caution to the wind and just adopt a universalist philosophy. I can't bear the thought of loved ones in eternal punishment.

    But the scripture keeps gettin in the way of that. Even if I could allow that God through His sovereignty will bring all persons without exception to Himself (ever heard of Primitive Baptist No-Hellers?), I can not do away with the clear teaching of a judgement to come, a casting into Hell to come, and the eternal nature of it. We would be forced to allegorize the entire revelation concerning judgement.

    Do we love people more than God loves them? I think that I love some people that God hates (no matter how you define hate, it's still hate). I believe that Rebecca loved Esau although she obiously favored Jacob. But her love of Esau did not keep back God's hatred of him.

    God commands us to love all people, for we do not know who the elect are and who the reprobate are. That's God's business. Our's is to love them anyway.
     
    #166 J.D., Dec 22, 2006
  7. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    The terror of the Lord is frightening isn't it? I do love. Therefore I will preach with every fiber of my being. If men truly do not have a choice, I will fight against that every day of my life. I will still do everything I can to convince people of the Gospel. It has been a passion of mine ever since God sovereignly saved me. It has just become more so. How anyone could think a Calvinist does not love .... does not have an all consuming passion for evangelism, is beyond me. It is as if I will fight God for the right for men to make choices... and in doing so I'm working with God.
     
    #167 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  8. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Amen. You have the heart of Spurgeon.
     
    #168 J.D., Dec 22, 2006
  9. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Thank you brother J.D. God just used you to break my heart.... again. You never know how God is going to use you. I thank the Lord for this bb too. I know He will use this tool to bring the elect to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    #169 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  10. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    Forgive me but I am in a hurry and did not read the rest of the posts so I may be duplicating.

    Adam and Eve had a choice. Christ is the second Adam sent to restore us to perfection. We have a choice. Just because God knows the outcome doesn't mean He forced it to be that way.
     
    #170 Soulman, Dec 22, 2006
  11. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Take the time to read the posts Soulman.... with the exception of the attacks.
     
    #171 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  12. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Also remember, it was the estute first-order Calvinist, John Knox, who said to the Lord "Give me Scotland, else I die!"
     
    #172 J.D., Dec 22, 2006
  13. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Maybe that is it. God wants us to contend with Him for the souls of men. Prayer... how ever you look at it, on your knees, standing with your eyes lifted up, or your fists, when awake and when asleep, praying without ceasing for the souls of men. And people say Calvinist don't pray? lol
     
    #173 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  14. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    You know..... I had never read the sermon "Sinners in the hand of an angry God." Wow! How powerful is that? Awesome. Thanks again.
     
    #174 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  15. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Did God create penicillin?
     
    #175 gb93433, Dec 22, 2006
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It is amazing how many would call themselves a Calvinist yet have never read any of Calvin's works especially the Institutes. It was Calvin who admitted that if his theology wer taken too far it would cause troubles. Yet "Calvinists' seem to fail to acknowledge what Calvin did about his own theology. If one looks at the totality of what Calvin believed they will see he sought a government much like the Taliban today.

    Are some putting words in Calvin's mouth things he did not say or believe?

    Being a follower of Calvin reminds me of what Paul wrote in 1 Cor., "I am of . . ."
     
    #176 gb93433, Dec 22, 2006
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Ignorant it is.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #177 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 22, 2006
  18. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    No more than God creating my automobile. He provides all the material for man to manufacture however. Same way with sin. He provided all the material, man manufactures it.
     
    #178 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  19. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    You really are ignorant of Calvinism. Calvinist are not "followers of Calvin." The word is used to point to a theolgical system of belief.
     
    #179 reformedbeliever, Dec 22, 2006
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    You are beginning to sound like one of those southern TV preachers. Maybe Benny. Are you telling the truth by telling us that you always do? My Bible calls you a liar where it reads differently in Eccl. 7:20, "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."
     
    #180 gb93433, Dec 22, 2006
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