Do we worship the same God?

[kyredneck]

Jesus was oppressed and afflicted and did not fight back against this oppression and affliction but remained silent?

Yea, but He did return with a vengeance some forty years later and 'miserably destroyed those miserable men and let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen'.

 

[JonC]

Yea, but He did return with a vengeance some forty years later and 'miserably destroyed those miserable men and let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen'.

That's debatable .

 

[Yeshua1]

I see Cals minimalizing God’s attribute of being love to justify their doctrines, denying His Omnipotence toward His ability to create creatures with the human volition to freely choose and still fulfill His plan in love, and putting His Omniscience in a box claiming He is unable to know all while allowing for creation of the design of His creatures with true free will.

Only God alone can have absolute free will!

 

[Benjamin]

Only God alone can have absolute free will!

You're going to need more premises behind that argument of "absolute". By aseity God does not have the free will to be evil. Nor does He have the free will to make a rock so big that even He can't lift it. People don't have the free will to save themselves but God has the free will to design creatures with human volition and have a loving plan to genuinely offer grace to each and every one of them according to His true judgment of their responses to His influences.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You're going to need more premises behind that argument of "absolute". By aseity God does not have the free will to be evil. Nor does He have the free will to make a rock so big that even He can't lift it. People don't have the free will to save themselves but God has the free will to design creatures with human volition and have a loving plan to genuinely offer grace to each and every one of them according to His true judgment of their responses to His influences.

So He influences? Then it’s your choice.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I wonder what kind of influence the devil presents.

 

[Yeshua1]

You're going to need more premises behind that argument of "absolute". By aseity God does not have the free will to be evil. Nor does He have the free will to make a rock so big that even He can't lift it. People don't have the free will to save themselves but God has the free will to design creatures with human volition and have a loving plan to genuinely offer grace to each and every one of them according to His true judgment of their responses to His influences.

God has true free will, as he cannot ever go anything against His attributes and nature, but he can always do what is the right thing, while none of us can even do that, restricted and bound by sin natures!

 

[Iconoclast]

God has true free will, as he cannot ever go anything against His attributes and nature, but he can always do what is the right thing, while none of us can even do that, restricted and bound by sin natures!

Free will does not exist.
Your first sentence says He cannot ever go against, that alone Limits the will.

 

[JonC]

God has true free will, as he cannot ever go anything against His attributes and nature, but he can always do what is the right thing, while none of us can even do that, restricted and bound by sin natures!

We have to be careful when we say "God cannot" because at that point we are always wrong. Scripture presents the impossibility that God act in an unrighteous manner to God's character as evidenced and revealed by God, not to an inability.

In other words, the divine attributes describe God. They do not prescribe what God can or cannot do. God is not a prisioner of His attributes.

But you are correct that God has free will. Men also have free will. Men freely sin. The choice to act righteously is ever present, and apart from an unwillingness men can obey God (hence Paul's words in Romans 3).

"Free-will" does not mean "uninfluenced" will. It is the power to act in ones own discretion. "Libertarian free-will" is a philosophical term that describes a will free of all constraints (to include ones own nature).

I agree that man does not possess libertarian free-will. And even here I have to say God does as God is not constrained (but as a philosophical term, it can be easily turned around because we can only know God through His revealed nature).

When we start picturing God as imprisoned by His attributes or nature I can almost visualize His words to Job - "where were you when I laid the earths foundation".

The more philosophical a theology becomes the less it is able to speak about God. I do not know that it is profitable to decree to God the boundaries of His ability - when and where Hos omnipotence ends. Perhaps it is enough to know He is righteous and faithful to His word.

 

[MB]

You make a false merging of The Godhead. No man cometh to The Father except by The Son.

Don't you believe that the Father is God? The Holy Spirit is God and Jesus is God. Yet they all are one God
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

We have to be careful when we say "God cannot" because at that point we are always wrong. Scripture presents the impossibility that God act in an unrighteous manner to God's character as evidenced and revealed by God, not to an inability.

In other words, the divine attributes describe God. They do not prescribe what God can or cannot do. God is not a prisioner of His attributes.

But you are correct that God has free will. Men also have free will. Men freely sin. The choice to act righteously is ever present, and apart from an unwillingness men can obey God (hence Paul's words in Romans 3).

"Free-will" does not mean "uninfluenced" will. It is the power to act in ones own discretion. "Libertarian free-will" is a philosophical term that describes a will free of all constraints (to include ones own nature).

I agree that man does not possess libertarian free-will. And even here I have to say God does as God is not constrained (but as a philosophical term, it can be easily turned around because we can only know God through His revealed nature).

When we start picturing God as imprisoned by His attributes or nature I can almost visualize His words to Job - "where were you when I laid the earths foundation".

The more philosophical a theology becomes the less it is able to speak about God. I do not know that it is profitable to decree to God the boundaries of His ability - when and where Hos omnipotence ends. Perhaps it is enough to know He is righteous and faithful to His word.

God will never act contrary to His own attributes, so His free will is always absolute, in always choosing to do what is consistent with Himself!

 

[Yeshua1]

Free will does not exist.
Your first sentence says He cannot ever go against, that alone Limits the will.

God alone can do whatever he pleases, as he is not restricted nor bound by any other force!

 

[MB]

Free will does not exist.
Your first sentence says He cannot ever go against, that alone Limits the will.

If God cannot do as He pleases then who may I ask keeps him in line?
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

If God cannot do as He pleases then who may I ask keeps him in line?
MB

Guess based upon some theology, God has limited himself to being bound to our human wills!
Which is not what scriptures actually teach us!

 

[JonC]

You're going to need more premises behind that argument of "absolute". By aseity God does not have the free will to be evil. Nor does He have the free will to make a rock so big that even He can't lift it. People don't have the free will to save themselves but God has the free will to design creatures with human volition and have a loving plan to genuinely offer grace to each and every one of them according to His true judgment of their responses to His influences.

I agree that God will not commit evil (God is righteous, God is love). But why the constraint - why the move from it being impossible that God do evil to it is impossible for God to do evil?

In other words, why change what Scripture describes as a quality of God Himself to a limitating constraint to which God must acquiesce?

I don't understand the reason for ir benefit in making the biblical truth into a philosophical limitation.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that God will not commit evil (God is righteous, God is love). But why the constraint - why the move from it being impossible that God do evil to it is impossible for God to do evil?

In other words, why change what Scripture describes as a quality of God Himself to a limitating constraint to which God must acquiesce?

I don't understand the reason for ir benefit in making the biblical truth into a philosophical limitation.

Maybe in order to try to maintain so call free will fallen humanity?

 

[kyredneck]

If God cannot do as He pleases then who may I ask keeps him in line?
MB

You tell me, who does this?:

2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; Titus 1

13 if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man: Ja 1

...and there's probably other things He 'cannot do', they don't come to mind right now....

 

[MB]

Guess based upon some theology, God has limited himself to being bound to our human wills!
Which is not what scriptures actually teach us!

I don't believe God has to limit Him self. There are some things He will not do. He will not sin. He will not lie. He will not be a part any sin Or cause sin. God is righteous. He is Loving, In fact He is Love.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

MB,
Hello mb,

My God is a Loving God and He desires Love from those who He created to love Him

.

"My God"?
There is only one God. The God described in the bible is God, We must see how he describes Himself in scripture.
Calvinists do describe the biblical God very well.

[QUOTE]To read some of the Calvinist post I have began to wonder if we are writing about the same God[/QUOTE].

[Snip]

You know the great creator of the world and the Cosmos and man.

Yes...that is Him...The Creator.

[QUOTE]Does the Calvinist God Love man[/QUOTE]

The word of God is clear God loves sinners in Christ. A multitude.

[QUOTE]or does He hate most men? [/QUOTE]

He hates all who remain outside of Christ,

The reason I would like to know is the Calvinism description of God is not love, purity, or divine.

Oh yes it is, most everyone can tell you all about it. Why not let Calvinists explain what they believe, then you will see for yourself.

Your picture of the real God does not match what is in scripture[/QUOTE].

Certainly it does. It must because it comes from all of scripture.

You tell us that God works all things after the council of His own will

Yes because He does just that very thing. Scripture is full of God's revealed will.

and then you paint God as being both evil and good.

No Calvinist says this. You say this, but No Calvinist says this, so your attack is not valid.

The creator of sin. Viciously condemning those he never gave chance to. You claim He created them to murder

.

Of Course, no one says this at all. where are these vain imaginations coming from?

Then you claim it's all for the glory of God? You are making God out to be like your selves, Lost Sinners[/QUOTE]

Of course, no one knows what you are posting about here.

Do you really believe you know anything about the real God?

Yes, we know he has made Himself known to us and declared these truths to us in scripture.

Not only this why would anyone worship such a tyrant as you so willingly make Him out to be?[/QUOTE]

Not one Calvinist believes like what you post. It suggests it is you who have it all wrong.

[

 

[Iconoclast]

You tell me, who does this?:

2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; Titus 1

13 if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man: Ja 1

...and there's probably other things He 'cannot do', they don't come to mind right now....

Kyred,
The portions that are highlighted in red are very clear. No amount of double talk, or philosophy are going to do away with these truths anytime soon, lol...no, not at all. Thanks for the clear post. No double talk, man has free will, but does not have free will, lol