Do you accidently contradict Rom 14 with Gal 4??

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Quote:
The problem is that there is no place in all of the NT where Jews are told not to keep Passover.

I'm not sure this is a sound basis for determining what is authorized under the NT. It actually gets into another discussion, but at the risk of changing the topic, I would contend that we are not at liberty to do something just because it is not specifically forbidden by the NT.

1. We can not deny that "Scripture" authorized Passover to start with.

2. IF we are ever going to make the case "it is sin to follow scripture regarding Passover" then you will need to show it from scripture.

You can not simply assume that this is going to be an easy thing to prove.


3. It is certain according to a number of non-Sabbath keeping non-Passover-keeping Bible commentaries that the Rom 14 protection WAS in fact very specifically for these Lev 23 annual holy days.

No less than John Gill "author of the first Baptist Bible commentary" admitted to this point in Rom 14.

Closer to the point, I would point out that Gentiles were discouraged from bringing themselves under the bondage of the Law, which includes all OT observances. (I am under the assumption that you are not Jewish by nationality.)

Correct - I am gentile.

However what you are saying is "gentiles are not to bring themselves into bondage in the form of actually having to obey the Word of God".

Think about that for a second.

If you can show that "obedience to the commandments" is not the same thing as "obeying God's Word" then you will need to show it.

But as far as NT authors go and "obeying God's commandments" consider this NT teaching as you do it.

WHY is it that Paul writes

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law"[/b] Rom 3:31 NASB

The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thanks Bob for correcting me. You are right that Gal 4 appears to be about a return to pagan observences of dates.



While Gal 4 does not say this, I believe Romans 14 suggests that not allowing Christian liberty in this regard can be "taking them too far".

GE

Gold Dragon, this is the boldest and most manly admission I have yet seen on Babtist Board. The grace of God be with you!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear BobRyan - will you not please tell us since when it was that you have come to the same insight Gold Dragon recently did through your conversation with him with regard to this subject? I think it will be encouraging for everybody following these arguments on Baptist Board.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan,
"1. We can not deny that "Scripture" authorized Passover to start with.

2. IF we are ever going to make the case "it is sin to follow scripture regarding Passover" then you will need to show it from scripture."

GE
This is prove with no-proof - sometimes perfectly legimate; sometimes when don't have 'positive proof'.

Now I say we have overwhelming 'proof' throughout all the Scriptures, that Christians should this very late hour in history, 'keep' the Passover. And in the dual respect of space and time, and in spirit ... just like it is with the Sabbath Day. And the way is the same for both the Passover and the Sabbath.

We being Christians do not celebrate the Seventh Day Sabbath because on it - as the Law explains to the Jews - because God freed them out of Egypt. For us that event serves as a lesson to understand our own Christian motive better, which is because God freed us through the Son once for all from our own Egypt of sin --- through Christ! Moses brought the Israelites out; Christ brought the Israel of God in - Hb4:8; then Israel - swared God - would NOT be brought in; but He, in Christ, "DID ENTER into His own rest as God from His"! And what is the conclusion from these two axiomatic facts of history (of space and time within space and time) made in the New Testament Book of Hebrews? The conclusion that has made it the object of ridicule and even hate with many Christians - the conclusion stated in verse 9!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"IF we are ever going to make the case "it is sin to follow scripture regarding Passover" then you will need to show it from scripture."

GE
My point is this: ALL the Scriptures are fulfilled in Christ, and ultimately, in Him in Resurrection from the dead. In Him - and in that point in time in that point in space of His Resurrection from the dead. the Passover as the main and all the other as the minor Prophecies and Promises of Christ WERE FULFILLED "IN THE SABBATH". Thus, all and every OT Law and Prophecy and Promise and Psalm and Song , are kept in the faithful of God's "feasting of Sabbaths' Feast" - in their spiritual "eating and drinking" of Christ as, "the Body that is of Christ's Own" . (Col2:16)

 

[BobRyan]

Dear BobRyan - will you not please tell us since when it was that you have come to the same insight Gold Dragon recently did through your conversation with him with regard to this subject? I think it will be encouraging for everybody following these arguments on Baptist Board.

I have been arguing this view of the paganism being addressed in Gal4 vs the defense of obedience to scripture being addressed in Romans 14 for a number of years.

I came to understand this view of Gal 4:8-11 with respect to paganism about 5 years ago. I believe the "Spirit of Truth" guided me in seeing this as a 3 segment problem in Gal 4, the first (Vs 1-7) being the sin problem that "we all face", the second (vs 8-11) being something unique to the gentiles in Galatia and the third (vs 12 through the end) being the problem with judaizers that much of the gentile church was facing.

To be honest I could not find any material on the 3 level segmentation and specifically the pagan gentile issue of vs 8-11 as contrasted to the rest of the chapter -- from within my own denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,

We being Christians do not celebrate the Seventh Day Sabbath because on it - as the Law explains to the Jews - because God freed them out of Egypt. For us that event serves as a lesson to understand our own Christian motive better, which is because God freed us through the Son once for all from our own Egypt of sin --- through Christ!

In Gen 2:1-4 long before Jew or gentile - Sinai or Caanan - God sanctifies the 7th day of creation week - making it a Holy day.

In Exodus 20 long before the 40 years of wandering in the desert - God reminds His people to remember the 7th day of creation week made a "Holy Day" in Gen 2:1-4.

Finally 40 years after that - Moses is about to die and reminds Israel that as God's rescued delivered people they have even more incentive to follow and obey and be faithful to that literal -7th day memorial of creation done by Christ our Creator. Because that is the same deliverer that rescued them from Egypt -- how much more then should they be "enthusiastic" about honoring Christ the Creator's memorial of HIS creative work in making mankind and in fact all life on earth. "Worhsip HIM who MADE the heavens and the earth the sea and all that is in them" Rev 7.

A message and focus of worship that continues to the very end of time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear Bob Ryan,

Encouraging is it when persons independently reach the same conclusions from the Word of God! Inspiring, I should say, and assuring in the Faith!

In about the eighties I published my findings on the Galatians question in, "Lig op die Dag van die Here" and "Die Sondag-Waarheid". In 1994 the new and expanded versions followed in "The Lord's Day in the Covenant of Grace". These books were put on the web round about two years after, and were supplemented with more issues the latest having been book 7 - a Synopsis of the Gospels, 'Lydingsweek' / 'Passion-Week'. (The only book in Afrikaans)

I started conversing with you on Babtist Board if I remember correctly about 2002, and have keenly watched your progress on Galatians, and was very glad to see the truth crystalising clearer and clearer on this subject in your arguments. I praise God for your new insights. It must surely pose its own problems in view of the established stance your denomination has taken in on the subject. I admire you for the courage and honesty you have shown. Stand fast!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Revelation 14,
"Lo, a Lamb stood ... on the Mount Sion ... and with Him hundred and fourty four thousand ... And they sung ... as it were ... a NEW SONG ... before the Throne ... and no man COULD LEARN that Song but who were redeemed from the the earth ... An everlasting Gospel ... Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to Him ("Glory in the Face of Jesus") ... Here is the patience of the saints : here are they that keep ... the faith of Jesus ... a white cloud and upon the cloud SAT (as King and Saviour cf. Eph1:19 to the end) the Son of Man."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Revelation 14 is about Christ as the Saviour. And even were it about Christ as Creator, it is about Him as "the Beginning of the creation of God" and not vice versa. The Sabbath is 'Memmorial' of the Redemption in Christ and through Christ in resurrection from the dead - that's what Rv14 tries to bring over! read the 'made heavens and earth' phrase if full context!

 

[BobRyan]

I started conversing with you on Babtist Board if I remember correctly about 2002, and have keenly watched your progress on Galatians, and was very glad to see the truth crystalising clearer and clearer on this subject in your arguments. I praise God for your new insights. It must surely pose its own problems in view of the established stance your denomination has taken in on the subject. I admire you for the courage and honesty you have shown. Stand fast!

Thank you -- however I don't know that I am manifesting as much courage as you appear to credit me with in this case.

While it is true that I have not found so clear a rendering of Gal 4 from within my own denomination as I would have hoped -- I do know that I have not found anything at the denominational level that is in outright opposition to what I have posted regarding Gal 4 either.

I think that Acts 21-22 make it clear that Paul was not telling Jewish Christians to "Stop obeying scripture".

So the argument that they were told "it is a sin to observe Passover" is not supported from scripture that I can see.

Yet in Heb 10, Col 2 and 1Cor 5 he DID lay the basis for it's observance being ended and though in Romans 14 he explicitly defends anyone observing it (or observing any or ALL of the Lev 23 annual Holy days) -- yet it is clearly an optional practice in Rom 14.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear BobRyan,

It is the doctrine of your denomination Galatians 4:10 has bearing on OT ceremonial-Law sabbaths etc, and that is in strict following of Mrs Ellen White. Have you confronted your Church with your findings vis a vis these facts face to face?

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that some in my denomination have interpreted Gal 4:10 as applying to OT annual holy days. I believe that is a mistake. But it is not "a denominational doctrinal" POV that I am aware of -- it is simply one popular idea within the Adventist denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I agree that some in my denomination have interpreted Gal 4:10 as applying to OT annual holy days. I believe that is a mistake. But it is not "a denominational doctrinal" POV that I am aware of -- it is simply one popular idea within the Adventist denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

GE
At one occasion a SDA Pastor offered me the opportunity to present my understanding of Galatians 4:10 (now the same as yours) before a rather elite group of Adventists. (Twenty years ago?) The only protestation I received was, 'It's against the Spirit of Prophecy'. About 20 months ago, another Pastor invited me to take advantage of the Worship hour -- he refused me a second opportunity, and the whole congregation still think I'm nuts. I must say that on this occasion I also gave them my understanding on Colossians 2:16-17. I have corresponded with a few SDA scholars on these things, and, judging by their response, this is a BIG almost all-important issue. They feel they must give up the Sabbath, imagine, if they wanted to accept my views!

Expecting braveness like we have seen on this thread illustrated is another thing!

 

[BobRyan]

Well it seems you and I are in agreement to some extent on Gal 4 being a reference to a return to paganism. That is encouraging. (I suspect we differ when it comes to Col 2)

You may also find this helpful.

In Acts 21-22 Paul is arguing in favor of OT ceremonies being allowed for Jews (as he does in Romans 14).

But what is even more amazing is in 1Cor 7:17-20 Where Paul argues that "Jews should not become un-Jewish... let each one remain in the condition in which they were found".

18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but [b]what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.[/b]

20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

I have been thinking about writing a book on the Jewishness of the NT church.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR
"I have been thinking about writing a book on the Jewishness of the NT church."

GE
I beg to differ seriously with you. The New Testament Church was surprisingly un-Jewish. It was 'Old Testamentish' in that it believed utter fulfilment of the OT in Jesus Christ, and that made the Church revolutionary to say the least. One thing, The Church IMMEDIATELY STOPPED sacrifices. The is no indication at all a single 'offering of sacrifice' was made by the Church from the day of Jesus' resurrection, and every indication no sacrificial offering could be imaigned possible by a Christian.

I think this is why you and I differ on Col2:12-19 (16-17). For in this Scripture I find the New Testament Church in its element and at ease and rest in its Christian niche, of Feasting Sabbath's Feast by reason of Jesus' resurrection from the dead. 2:16-17 should not be isolated from its greater context for one moment; its ONLY validity is founded upon Christ's THRIUMPH over the powers, authorities, rule, wisdom and first principles of the world. I see in Col2 the pure innocent, celebrating, freed Church of Christ in action and movement, undaunted and rejoycing through Jesus Christ in Redemption full and free.
It is not difficult to 'interpret this Scripture from thiserspective --- not in the least. In fact, one soon discovers it is impossible to understand the passage in another way.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR
"I have been thinking about writing a book on the Jewishness of the NT church."

GE
You will find very little source-material from the New Testament! And Colossians 2:16-17 must shine in its absence.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Write a book on how 'New Testamentish' and Christian, the Early Church was (had been) --- there's a challenge for you! Make it a calling! And God's blessing upon it pray for you.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

"... since the OT ... has been done away with."???? Are you a Christian; a Protestant; a Roman Catholic; even a pentecostal? I ask, because none of these hold the OT 'has been done away with'!

My apologies for the delayed response. I've been out of town and I'm getting back into my groove.

It's actually the Bible that teaches that the OT has been done away with.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

This describes the scene at Mt. Sinai in Exodus 20.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

All of these teach that the OT, including the Patriarchal and Mosaic systems, are superceded by the New Testament in Jesus' blood.

I am simply a Christian, neither Catholic nor Protestant. If I am in a denomination, I have been forced into it, since truth is always divided from error, but in the beginning there were no denominations.

I have no creed, church manual, or confession of faith but the Bible. Any such that says less than the Bible says too little. Any such that says more than the Bible says too much. Any such that says the same is unecessary, since we already have the Bible.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Bob, this is late, but your post deserves a response. Here is a portion of what I'm replying to:

However what you are saying is "gentiles are not to bring themselves into bondage in the form of actually having to obey the Word of God".

Think about that for a second.

If you can show that "obedience to the commandments" is not the same thing as "obeying God's Word" then you will need to show it.

But as far as NT authors go and "obeying God's commandments" consider this NT teaching as you do it.

WHY is it that Paul writes

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

[several other Scriptures are referenced]

I did not mean to imply that we are not to keep any of the commandments of God. But surely we can agree that not all of God's commandments are for all people of all time.

For example, God commanded animal sacrifices under the Patriarchal and Mosaic systems. Of course, nobody is advocating the continuation of animal sacrifices though, because we all understand that those commandments do not apply to us under the NT.

Again there is the example of Noah's ark. That was a command given to a certain person at a certain time for a certain purpose. It would be ludicrous for anyone today to undertake the building of such a craft. There would be no point to it.

There are principles and precepts to be learned fro the OT that do have application for us today, and for all that will live until the Lord returns. However, some commandments no longer apply simply due to the fact that they were given to specific persons or people under different Covenants.

There are commandments under the NT that are unique to those living under the NT. These are the commandments I believe were referred to in the verses you cited earlier.

I've not said it before, but thanks for bringing this subject up. I'd not given thought to comparing these passages before.