Do you agree with this? Washer & Lordship salvation

[DHK]

It is being stated by some and implied by others that there are no conditions to salvation. Is faith a condition to God imputing the righteousness of Christ to an individual?

To those who will stick with faith NOT being a condition, please explain the following:

Romans 4:22 "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

Chapter four of Romans is a good chapter, but y ou need the entire chapter. Go back to the beginning of the chapter for the answer to your question.
"Is faith a condition to God imputing the righteousness of Christ to an individual?

Romans 4:1-2 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
--So what about Abraham? What had he gained? By his works he had gained nothing. He could not glory before God out of his own doings, his own works. He could not say: "Look what I did."

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham had done nothing to warrant God's blessing. The works that he did, didn't count for anything. It clearly says that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." He was justified by faith alone. He works followed his salvation; were not a part of his salvation. He was made righteous by faith alone. "He believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--In total contrast to verse 3, Paul states that the one who works; the one who claims that there are conditions to salvation; for his work he will gain his reward. The reward there means that which he deserves or that which he has worked for. It is not a gift; not of grace, as the verse says--not reckoned of grace. Salvation is free--reckoned of grace. There are no conditions attached. I don't have to work for it. It is "not of debt."

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To make it even more clear and emphatic:
This is the entire statement in a nutshell. Read it over again.
If I don't work, but only believe on Christ, then Christ justifes me; it is by my faith alone that I am justified.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
--Rigteousness is imputed without works. There is no doubt.

Faith is not a work. It is not something I must "do." It is belief.
Doing and believing are two different things.

 

[steaver]

HP:I have said the same thing all along. There is a sense in which all sins have been atoned for, but that does not guarantee any particular sin(s) will be forgiven. There is no contradiction on my part and I have not changed my position.

Now you first said,,,,

"HP: I see this passage as clarifying that it is 'sins that are past' that is the object here of forgiveness and that the blood serves as a covering for, NOT sins presently being committed or future sins, or sins in general in which the believer has not fulfilled the conditions by which a pardon from them is received, i.e., repentance and faith."


And then you changed to "in a sense ALL".

Pick one HP. You said "NOT" in big capital letters to make sure we all got it and now you say "in a sense". This is why many cannot follow your views. You will make an absolute statement and then when pressured to give an answer concerning such an absolute statement you conjure up a "in a sense".

No, not in any sense whatsoever. Either Jesus Christ is the propitiation for sins past only, as you first said, or He is the propitiation for sins past, present and future. Add the condition of repentence and faith if you so please, but please choose between past only or all three. Retract the big "NOT" or stay true to it, but you can't have it both ways.

How can one debate another who will not take a definite stand on his interpretation of scripture. You constantly changing and tweeking as the debate goes on tells me that you are not really sure of what you are saying so you really have no solid conviction of what you are saying.

HP: The problem is that you view the atonement as a literal payment for sins. Scripture tells us 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This isn't the problem. Even if all sins are paid for by the atonement of Christ there is still one sin that Jesus said would never be forgiven, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. So even if Jesus paid for all sins, even the unbelievers sins, the unbeliever will still not be granted eternal life because he has rejected the Holy Spirit. Faith is the focus for imputation of righteousness, NOT simply God declaring everyone righteous because Christ died and paid for the sins of everyone.

HP: Christ died for all and made the way possible that all might be forgiven. He is the propitiation for ALL sins, yet that does NOT mean that any individual sin in particular is or will be forgiven.

So He is for ALL sins? Or is He just for sins past? Remember we are dealing with Romans 3:25 yet. I want to know if you are sticking to the big "NOT" sins present or future, or if you wish to retract this and go with the above big "ALL" sins. We can get to repentence and faith, and any other conditions you please, but let's first define the propitiation of Christ. Is it for past sins only or for all, past, present and future sins?

God has mandated certain conditions to be fulfilled by us,i.e., repentance and faith, without which no forgiveness will be realized in spite of Him being a propitiation for the sins of the entire world.

This I can say amen to. But we would have to define the interpretations of these conditions with scripture. But let's get past Romans 3:25 first. I need a stable answer from you.



God Bless!

 

[trustitl]

DHK:

I read your reply but am not quite sure if you would say yes or no to the following:

Is faith a condition to obtaining salvation.

I would appreciate it if you made your answer a simple yes or no.

I agree with everything you are saying, but am unclear to the above.

 

[DHK]

DHK:

I read your reply but am not quite sure if you would say yes or no to the following:

Is faith a condition to obtaining salvation.

I would appreciate it if you made your answer a simple yes or no.

I agree with everything you are saying, but am unclear to the above.

No, it is not a conditon.
It is not a condition because it does not fall under the definition of "condition"
Salvation is unconditional.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Salvation is unconditional.

HP: For some strange reason that certainly sounds like a familiar theme although contrary to Scripture. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

 

[webdog]

No, it is not a conditon.
It is not a condition because it does not fall under the definition of "condition"
Salvation is unconditional.

Conditional simply means...

1. Imposing, depending on, or containing a condition. See synonyms at dependent.

Salvation is most definately dependant on faith. Salvation is conditional. Imputed righteousness is conditional. If it weren't, those that "believe not" can be saved.

 

[DHK]

Conditional simply means...

1. Imposing, depending on, or containing a condition. See synonyms at dependent.

Salvation is most definately dependant on faith. Salvation is conditional. Imputed righteousness is conditional. If it weren't, those that "believe not" can be saved.

As long as salvation is "conditional" it remains out of the reach of mankind.

Is God's love conditional?
Is God's grace conditioal?
--Did you work in order for the rain to fall or the sun to shine? Did you have a part in forcing God's hand to keep the earth revolving in its orbit?
What conditions are there in order to receive the grace of God?

What if I don't want to receive the grace of God?
--Does that mean I will have to run between the raindrops?

The love of God is free without conditons.
The grace of God is free without conditions.
Salvation is by grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If salvation is by grace, then it is free.
If it is by grace it is not by works, or else it is not by grace.

Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
Therefore faith is not a work. Being not a work it is not a condition.
A condition is a transaction, something that is done.
Neither grace or faith fit into that definition.
Both faith and grace leave salvation as a gift--free to accept--without works.
There is no conditions--nothing to be earned.
It is the free gift of God. By faith we accept it; by grace it is given.

 

[webdog]

Is God's love conditional?
Is God's grace conditioal?

Strawmen. Grace and love are not salvation. While salvation stems from both, to equate both with salvation is false.

"This is the testimony that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Those who have the Son have life, those who do not have the Son of God do not have life"

The condition is Jesus Christ and being in Him by faith in Him.

 

[DHK]

Strawmen. Grace and love are not salvation. While salvation stems from both, to equate both with salvation is false.

"This is the testimony that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Those who have the Son have life, those who do not have the Son of God do not have life"

The condition is Jesus Christ and being in Him by faith in Him.

And faith is not a condition for it does not fit the definition of a condition.
It is a belief, not a condition.

 

[webdog]

And faith is not a condition for it does not fit the definition of a condition.
It is a belief, not a condition.

...yet I gave you the very definition of "conditional" that proves this notion wrong.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

A condition on the part of man is not meritorious in nature. A condition is always thought of in the sense of 'not without which' not 'that for the sake of.' We are not ‘for the sake of’ repentance, faith, or continued obedience, but neither will any man be saved apart from, or without repentance, faith and continued obedience. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Yes there are things man must do and continue to do in order to inherit eternal life, but nothing man does will ever merit eternal life noir cna anything man do atone for a single sin. God has clearly set forth conditions in His Word in order for man to be saved. Gods pours out many things on the just and the unjust, like rain DHK, and even opportunity and grace in some degree, but His salvation is conditional. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[DHK]

...yet I gave you the very definition of "conditional" that proves this notion wrong.

Here is the definition of condition that you gave in this thread.

Acceptance of a gift is a requirement attached by God.

"Grace is not opposed to effort...grace is opposed to earning"

No, this is not a good definition of condition. It is very inadequate. There is a much better definition of condition on the other thread. In fact this doesn't even define the word "condition." It is more of a description of what grace doesn't do.

A condition is a transaction where certain requirements are made. (faith doesn't fall into that definition as God makes no requirements. His salvation is and always has been unconditional, just as his love has been. Salvation is the free gift of God. If it required any kind of condition it wouldn't be free, would it?

A condition is something that must be done on behalf of one or both parties. Faith is not something one does. That is, it is not a work.

Faith does not fit within the realm of the definition of a "condition."

 

[webdog]

Conditional simply means...

1. Imposing, depending on, or containing a condition. See synonyms at dependent.

Salvation is most definately dependant on faith. Salvation is conditional. Imputed righteousness is conditional. If it weren't, those that "believe not" can be saved.

Just wanted to repost this for DHK's sake, that this is the definition for conditional I gave, not what he claimed I gave.

 

[DHK]

Just wanted to repost this for DHK's sake, that this is the definition for conditional I gave, not what he claimed I gave.

"Condition means...containing a condition"
How enlightening! Defining a word with the same word. That is not a suitable definition and still doesn't give a proper definition of the word.
"Faith" falls outside of your definition of the word "condition."
In no way is faith a condition of salvation.
Salvation is unconditional.
God never put any conditions on salvation.

 

[webdog]

"Condition means...containing a condition"
How enlightening! Defining a word with the same word. That is not a suitable definition and still doesn't give a proper definition of the word.
"Faith" falls outside of your definition of the word "condition."
In no way is faith a condition of salvation.
Salvation is unconditional.
God never put any conditions on salvation.

Selective reading. Did you miss that little "depending on" part?

 

[DHK]

Selective reading. Did you miss that little "depending on" part?

Now you sound like an adherent to the WOF movement (Word of Faith).
As you are inferring, I don't depend on putting my faith in faith.
My salvation is dependent on Christ. It is not dependent on my faith. It is dependent on Christ in Him alone. He paid the penalty for my sins. I don't put faith in my faith. My trust is in Christ alone.

 

[trustitl]

Now you sound like an adherent to the WOF movement (Word of Faith).

Just a gentle reminder.:thumbs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
HP, this is a warning. Stop the name-calling. Stop the accusations. It doesn't matter how high of an opinion you may fashion yourself to be as a theologian.

Further arguments about such name-calling will be taken up with the administration. This is simply a warning.


Gal. 6:1 "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Now you sound like an adherent to the WOF movement (Word of Faith).

HP: It is obvious that even the moderator is not willing to live up to that which he requires of others on the list for even a day.

I call such a remark slander by DHK’s use and definition of the word 'slander!'

Pastor Bob, where art thou?:wavey:

 

[webdog]

Now you sound like an adherent to the WOF movement (Word of Faith).
As you are inferring, I don't depend on putting my faith in faith.
My salvation is dependent on Christ. It is not dependent on my faith. It is dependent on Christ in Him alone. He paid the penalty for my sins. I don't put faith in my faith. My trust is in Christ alone.

Another ad hominem from you, I see. I won't bother reporting this one, as the administrators / moderators are fearful in rebuking a fellow mod here on the BB...

You also are quite prone to erect really lame strawmen. Not once have I ever alluded to the fact I put my faith in my faith. Salvation DEPENDS, i.e. CONDITIONED on faith IN CHRIST. It doesn't get much clearer than that. If I just depended on Christ without faith in Him, I would be lost and in hell when I die.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here was Pastor Bob the moderators post, with the ink still wet.

Pastor Bob: There will no more labeling allowed in this thread. It is not good debate form to pigeon-hole another into a preconceived theological camp. The fact that one has beliefs in common with another does not make them a party to the belief system as a whole.

For example, I believe in the biblical doctrine of the depravity of man. That does make make me a Calvinist nor does that mean that I espouse Calvinistic doctrine. This doctrine precedes Calvin.

Peter Ruckman shares my belief in the biblical doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture. That does not make me a Ruckmanite. I believe in the biblical doctrine of the security of the believer. That does not make me an Arminian.

Any further labeling will result in certain editing and the possibility of further action.

Notice 'the CERTAIN editing' part of this post. Now this should be real interesting how certain this editing will be. Is anyone besides me remineded of Haman?

Now the old proverb is clearly elucidated before our eyes: Chickens come home to roost. :thumbs: