Do you believe in ecumenism?

Which is why I disagreed with El_Guero's first definition of ecumenism.

 

I did in post #10.

Ecumenism for me is obedience to John 17 and Ephesians 4.

Of course, I'm sure you won't agree with any definition that doesn't include the words compromiser or universalist.

 

I see a problem with using the word "ecumenism" to mean the outworking of the prayer of Jesus in John 17, or the "one body" teaching of Ephesians 4. As I said in an earlier message in this thread, "ecumensim" tends to be used (at least here in the UK) to refer to the ideology that aims to unite all who call themselves Christians, and all bodies that call themselves churches, regardless of what those individuals and bodies actually believe. It's important (I'm sure you will agree) in order to to understand the meaning of a bible passage, to know who is being spoken of.

An example will show what I mean. Genesis 3.15:

"And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Are those words addressed to everyone who reads them? Of course not. We only need to look back one verse to find they were addressed to the serpent/Satan.

In the same way, who are the "they" in John 17.21, where Jesus prays that "they may all be one"? The answer is there earlier in the prayer, in verses 8 & 9:

8 "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours."

Likewise with Ephesians 4. The whole letter is addressed thus, in Ephesians 1.1:

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Using the word "ecumenism" to describe the unity of those who are truly saved by the Lord Jesus Christ is open to misinterpretation, because the same word is far more often used in much broader the way I mentioned above. I suppose it's rather like the use of the word "catholic". It's so often used these days as shorthand for "Roman Catholic", that it must be something of a shock to a newly converted Christian who joins an evangelical Anglican church, and finds himself saying in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the holy catholic church."

Every blessing,

 

Yes I am. I'm afraid that many Christians get hung up on non-fundamental issues and thereby divide the true church.

 

I don't know about you (or didn't when I posted this) but I,m glad we are in agreement.

 

quote=Gold Dragon]I did in post #10.

Ecumenism for me is obedience to John 17 and Ephesians 4.

Of course, I'm sure you won't agree with any definition that doesn't include the words compromiser or universalist.[/quote]

As I posted previously, you are taking those verses to mean we should join up and be one with everyone that mentions the name of Christ. That is not what the bible teaches.

 

John 17:20 tells you who the 'they' is in John 17:21

And would you say the same about this verse?

I would say obedience to both apply to me today.

 

I think we probably agree on this. All I meant in my previous post was that "they" doesn't refer to every single person who has ever lived or will ever live, but to those who by God's grace believe in Jesus Christ. (And that means far more than simply believing in His existence).

Also, I don't believe that the "they" includes everyone in the world who says they are Christian. This didn't happen too much, I imagine, in the early history of the church, when to lay claim to being a Christian could bring the death penalty, or at least harsh treatment - just think of how the unconverted Paul/Saul was "breathing out threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord", and had the backing of the high priest. It still happens in some parts of the word today. But these days in the West it seems quite common for people to say they are Christians because there are not muslims, atheists, hindus, or whatever, or because they "never do anyone any harm" or because they were sprinkled with water as babies in a christening ceremony. I mentioned in an earlier message that in the 2001 census here, about 41 million people, out of a total population of almost 59 million, said they were Christians, yet only 3½ million attend any kind of church.

Both in the prayer of Jesus and in Ephesians 4, it is surely those who have "new life in the Lord Jesus Christ" who are in view.

Every blessing,

 

Amen. Many will call out on that Day Lord, Lord but He will say I never knew you.

 

I agree that we should not use the word "ecumenisim" when describing true believers. God wants unity between believers.

Ecumenisim is used today to describe the emerging false religion that will sweep the world. It will be so numbing in it's approach that if it were possible even the elect would be decieved. The rest of the world will believe a lie. It all sounds so good. But it is wrong and it's author is the angel of light. He also has ministers of righteousness.

Do people think it is just the obvious ones we can spot like the JW's, Mormons, Catholics', etc? It includes some groups very close to the things you and I believe. Unfortunately the Charasmatics and Pentacostals are in this catagory.

The forces that drive these two interdenominational or non-denominational movements are the so called gifts of the spirit. They are the uniting force behind the movements. Not doctrine. If I heard Jesus speak to me or saw an angel how could I be wrong? I would have a 1 on 1 relationship with God. I wouldn't have to read my bible as much because I get my info directly from the Spirit. And if everyone else was experiencing the same feelings and gifts as I, it must be right. Right? WRONG!

Also having been a charasmatic years ago I know from experience that they feel they have to maintain their salvation. They do not believe in eternal security. Therefore they really don't understand salvation.

Are some saved? I believe there are. And those that are are God's children and will be led out of that movement as I was. The rest will be left behind and wax worse and worse after the rapture of the true church occurs.

Don't assume that Charasmatics, Catholics and Pentacostals are all saved and are all christians. Neither are all baptists saved. The bible shows that the great whore of Babylon will rise. That whore will be made up of people that "THINK" they are christians. This religion is called the whore because she spreads herself around to everybody that will have her. She is the false bride of Christ! That religious system is taking shape now.

In order to have a one world religion everybody either has to really get saved and believe with one accord or you have to drop doctrine and unite on another level such as worship and feelings and experiences. Most of the "so called" christians that many of you feel are just christians of a different stripe are inaccurate. If the one world religion is to gain it's greatest strength during the tribulation it will be filled with the unsaved as the anti christ comes into power. When the world is united, the anti christ will unite the people politically and have no more need for this religion.

Once again Satan will have impersonated God to deceive Eves children once again. If you think that is bad, he will then destroy this religion, sit in the temple and demand once again that he be worshipped as God.

Remember that God told us that Satan would come as an angel of light. He became Eves buddy in the garden only to decieve her. He is good at what he does. This isn't the first time he has tried to be God. It won't be the last either.raying: