I count at least 17 times where miracles help lead to conversions in the book of Acts.The clearest examples are in 9:34-35,40-42.There is no doubt that the working of miracles-signs and wonders-helped bring people to Christ.That is what Luke wants us to see and that is why the Christians prayed for signs and wonders to happen.This raises two questions:1)Why was the prayer for signs and wonders in Acts 4:30 not wicked and adulterous,in view of what Jesus said in Mt.12:39?and 2)Why did the seeking and occurrence of signs and wonders in the missionary effort of the first century Christians not contradict the sufficiency of the gospel as the power of God unto salvation? The answer to the first question comes from the context of Jesus'indictment of sign-seeking.Seeking signs from God is"wicked and adulterous"when the demand for more and more evidence comes from a resistant heart and simply covers up an unwillingness to believe.If we are carrying on a love affair with the world,and our husband,Jesus,after a long separation,comes to us and says,"I love you and I want you back,"one of the best ways to protect our adulterous relationship with the world is to say,"You're not really my husband;you don't really love me.Prove it.Give me some sign."If that's the way we demand a sign,then we are a wicked and adulterous generation.But if we come to God with a heart aching with longing for vindication of his glory and the salvation of sinners,then we are not wicked and adulterous.We are a faithful wife,only wanting to honor our husband.The answer to the second question-the question why signs and wonders need not detract from the power of the gospel-comes from Luke's own explanation of how wonders and the word are related.In Acts 14:3 he says that Paul and Barnabas"remained a long time [in Iconium] speaking boldly for the Lord,who bore witness to the word of his grace,granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands." This is utterly crucial:signs and wonders are God's witness to his word.They are not in competition with the word.They are not against the word.They are not over the word.They are divine witnesses to the value and truth and necessity and centrality of the word(see also Heb.2:4;Mk.16:20).
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DO YOU BELIEVE IN SPEAKING IN TONGUES
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THANKS TO ALL WHO SUPPORT MY VEIW ON TONGUES .
I HAVE A QUESTION HOW DID ALL HTE GENRATIONS OF THOSE WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES DIE OUT I MEAN YOU WHO DON'T BELIEVE HAVE BEEN TOUGHT THAT SINCE YA'LL HAVE BEEN LITTLE MORE THAN LIKELY MY GIRLS WILL GROW UP BELIVEING IN THEM AND SOME DAY THEY MAY SPEAK IN TONGUES AND THEIR KIDS WILL GROW UP AND BELIEVE AND TEACH AND THIS WILL G
N FOR GENRATIONS TO COME SO I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW ALL THE GENEREATIONS OF EARLY PENECOSTALS DIED OFF PEOPLE TEACH THEIR KIDS AND SN AND SN
I HAVE A QUESTION HOW DID ALL HTE GENRATIONS OF THOSE WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES DIE OUT I MEAN YOU WHO DON'T BELIEVE HAVE BEEN TOUGHT THAT SINCE YA'LL HAVE BEEN LITTLE MORE THAN LIKELY MY GIRLS WILL GROW UP BELIVEING IN THEM AND SOME DAY THEY MAY SPEAK IN TONGUES AND THEIR KIDS WILL GROW UP AND BELIEVE AND TEACH AND THIS WILL G
N FOR GENRATIONS TO COME SO I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW ALL THE GENEREATIONS OF EARLY PENECOSTALS DIED OFF PEOPLE TEACH THEIR KIDS AND SN AND SNChristopher
New Member
Corinth was not a model church. The requirements that Paul laid out for Corinth could not be held to be the entire teaching for all churches.
1.) So when Paul says that if one speaks in tongues w/o an interpreter he speaks into the air, it just means when the Corinthians practiced it.
2.) When Paul saif that we were going to be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...what that for us? Nah, just for them I suppose.
3.) What about the collection of the saints (1 Cor. 16) We're not supposed to give to the church? Nah, just for them Corinthians.
See how crazy that sounds. Can't treat the Bible like a buffet bar and take what you want and leave the rest.
By His grace, Christopher
1.) So when Paul says that if one speaks in tongues w/o an interpreter he speaks into the air, it just means when the Corinthians practiced it.
2.) When Paul saif that we were going to be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...what that for us? Nah, just for them I suppose.
3.) What about the collection of the saints (1 Cor. 16) We're not supposed to give to the church? Nah, just for them Corinthians.
See how crazy that sounds. Can't treat the Bible like a buffet bar and take what you want and leave the rest.
By His grace, Christopher
ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
If Satan wants to fake a phenomena, perhaps that phenomena may not have ceased at all. (Please forgive my humble reasoning.)
Our former pastor related this first-account incident...
He and a Chinese friend decided to attend one speaking-in-tongues church one Sunday morning. Believe you me, they were really speaking in existing languages, not just mumbling nonsense. However, his Chinese companion shouted, "Pastor, this guy is cursing God in Chinese!"
The "speaking-in-Chinese-tongue" person, did not know a thing about the Chinese language.
So there you have it--demonic visitation through unbiblical practices. I guess that the unbiblical practice was...there was no interpreter?
Our former pastor related this first-account incident...
He and a Chinese friend decided to attend one speaking-in-tongues church one Sunday morning. Believe you me, they were really speaking in existing languages, not just mumbling nonsense. However, his Chinese companion shouted, "Pastor, this guy is cursing God in Chinese!"
The "speaking-in-Chinese-tongue" person, did not know a thing about the Chinese language.
So there you have it--demonic visitation through unbiblical practices. I guess that the unbiblical practice was...there was no interpreter?
Signs and wonders are not the saving word of grace;they are God's secondary testimony to the word of his grace.Signs and wonders do not save.They are not the power of God unto salvation.They do not transform the heart-any more than music or art or drama which accompany the gospel.Signs and wonders can be imitated by Satan(2Thess.2:9;Mt.24:24),but the gospel is utterly contrary to his nature.What changes the heart and saves the soul is the self-authenticating glory of Christ seen in the message of the gospel(2Cor.3:18-4:6).But even if signs and wonders can't save the soul,they can,if God pleases,shatter the shell of disinterest;they can shatter the shell of cynicism;they can shatter the shell of false religion.Like every other good witness to the word of grace,they can help the fallen heart to fix its gaze on the gospel where the soul-saving,self-authenticating,glory of the Lord shines.Therefore the early church longed for God to stretch forth his hand to heal,and that signs and wonders be done in the name of Jesus.
Did the Apostles get thier own tv show, do a few "Faith Healings" and then ask for money? Or did they heal as they saw need. Did they pray for God to work Miracles, did they do it on demand or did they see a need and let the Spirit lead them to perform the gift through them?
What happened in Acts is not happening today. You can pray for it all you want, but it isn't happening, so ask yourself why.
If it were truly happening as it did then, then why are they staying in thier churches rather then going out into the masses, oh say a hospital and showing what the power of God can really do? No, those who have that "gift" today, stay where they are and expect the sick to come to them. The Apostles were moving, traveling, going to share the gospel and the miracles were something God used to show the world that this NEW relationship with God, the working of His Spirit THROUGH men in a way that never happened before was indeed from God and fulfilled the prophecies to show the Jews that this was real.
Show me where what the Apostles did is happening today. It isn't. Then ask yourself why.
As for tongues, what kind of miracle is it to make some babble that makes no sense, defies the instructions laid out in the Word of God and is copied by many secular and vulgar religions of our time. How is this of God?
Tongues were for a sign, they were a specific language that were to be interpreted. If that is not what you are speaking then it isn't the tongues of the Bible.
The miracle of tongues is that people could understand the Gospel, not that they could babble unintelligable words! You are missing the whole point of tongues!!!
And Peter preached the gospel message to them and they heard and understood it. At which point:
That my friends is the miracle and purpose of tongues! That is not what those who are speaking tongues are doing today.
~Lorelei
Lorelei;please don't read more into my posts than is there,I'm not supporting the tongues movement as we have it as it is today.The fact that the early Christians prayed so earnestly for signs and wonders(Acts4:30) is all the more striking when we realize that they, of all generations were in least need of supernatural authentication.This was the generation whose preaching(of Peter and Stephen,Philip and Paul)was more anointed than the preaching of any generation following.If any preaching was the power of God unto salvation and did not need accompanying signs and wonders,it was this preaching.Moreover this was the generation that had more immediate and more compelling evidence of the truth of the resurrection than any generation since.Hundreds of eyewitnesses to the risen Lord were alive in Jerusalem.If any generation in the history of the church knew the power of preaching and the authentication of the gospel from first-hand evidence of the resurrection,it was this one.Yet it was they who prayed passionately for God to stretch foth his hand in signs and wonders.Therefore,we must conclude that in our zeal for the centrality of the word we should not go beyond the word by making signs and wonders enemies of the word of the cross.Nobody was more jealous for the power of the word than Paul.Yet he described his mission as Christ working through him"in the power of signs and wonders"(Rom.15:19).Were these the unique"sign of an apostle"and thus not valid for us?
Lorelei,
I don't know if you can see your reasoning, but you are starting at the point of saying that tongues do not exist today, then finding reasons why they don't.
There are problems with some today who do gifts. Just as there were problems in the Apostle Paul's time.
It's always interesting to me that when people don't want the gifts, they don't say, "I don't want the gifts." They say, "Nobody wants the gifts."
Well, some do want the gifts. I do. I want them the same way they were given to the early church. I want them because they are the work of the Holy Spirit.
What you won't say is "I don't want the supernatural gifts that the Holy Spirit wants to give me." You will say "Nobody gets them because they are not being given any more."
But what you can't support with any source is when anybody speaking for God said that the gifts stopped, and they are no longer the work of the Holy Spirit. Many today say that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased, and give their reasons. But they are only parroting those who taught them. Faint echos, is what this is. But when you can show me a Godly source who said that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer the work of the Holy Spirit, then I will look into your source.
I have been waiting a long time for an answer. I assume that my wait is far from over.
I don't know if you can see your reasoning, but you are starting at the point of saying that tongues do not exist today, then finding reasons why they don't.
There are problems with some today who do gifts. Just as there were problems in the Apostle Paul's time.
It's always interesting to me that when people don't want the gifts, they don't say, "I don't want the gifts." They say, "Nobody wants the gifts."
Well, some do want the gifts. I do. I want them the same way they were given to the early church. I want them because they are the work of the Holy Spirit.
What you won't say is "I don't want the supernatural gifts that the Holy Spirit wants to give me." You will say "Nobody gets them because they are not being given any more."
But what you can't support with any source is when anybody speaking for God said that the gifts stopped, and they are no longer the work of the Holy Spirit. Many today say that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased, and give their reasons. But they are only parroting those who taught them. Faint echos, is what this is. But when you can show me a Godly source who said that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer the work of the Holy Spirit, then I will look into your source.
I have been waiting a long time for an answer. I assume that my wait is far from over.
DocCas
New Member
Paul makes it very clear that the gift of tongues would die out. 1 Corinthians 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;"
There was to be a time when the gift of tongues would cease. The Greek word translated "cease" is παυσονται a future tense, middle deponent voice, indicative mood verb meaning "to cease in and of themselves" or to "die away of themselves."
Now, if you will note verse 13, Pauls goes on to say, "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." See what Paul says? Even as he penned the words of 1 Corinthians, the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given! Paul did not say "and now abideth faith, hope, charity, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six."
The gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given when Paul wrote those words! Those saints who had already been given the gifts still had them, and could still exercise them (forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:39) but the gifts were no longer being given to new converts. And, as those older saints grew old and died, the gift of tongues died out with them, exactly as Paul said in verse 8.
You can desire the gift of tongues all you want to, but you will not receive it for God has said the gift has ceased. Just because you desire something doens't make it right. A drug addict desires drugs, a drunk desires booze, and a pervert desires his perversion, but it is not God's will for those desires to be fulfilled.
There was to be a time when the gift of tongues would cease. The Greek word translated "cease" is παυσονται a future tense, middle deponent voice, indicative mood verb meaning "to cease in and of themselves" or to "die away of themselves."
Now, if you will note verse 13, Pauls goes on to say, "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." See what Paul says? Even as he penned the words of 1 Corinthians, the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given! Paul did not say "and now abideth faith, hope, charity, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six."
The gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given when Paul wrote those words! Those saints who had already been given the gifts still had them, and could still exercise them (forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:39) but the gifts were no longer being given to new converts. And, as those older saints grew old and died, the gift of tongues died out with them, exactly as Paul said in verse 8.
You can desire the gift of tongues all you want to, but you will not receive it for God has said the gift has ceased. Just because you desire something doens't make it right. A drug addict desires drugs, a drunk desires booze, and a pervert desires his perversion, but it is not God's will for those desires to be fulfilled.
I understand your side of the discussion. (I grew up believing just what you said.) But just because you say it is so, does not make it a fact.
The Apostle Paul, just a few words before the ones you mentioned (in Chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians) said that the Holy Spirit has a job, a "work".
1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [8] To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [10] to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. [11] All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Paul says this is the work of the Holy Spirit. You would say this WAS the work of the Holy Spirit. But you are not the originator of this concept; you are just saying what you have been taught.
Are you willing to say the the Holy Spirit has given you a revelation that this is no longer His work? If so, then when, where how, etc.
Or will you say that you are just falling back on your own interpretation, (which is not yours, but those who taught you.)
You don't want the gifts. So guess what? You don't get them. But you will say that nobody gets them. Well, I have at least one. My wife has at least one. And I know others who have said YES to the Holy Spirit, and have received the giftings that the Holy Spirit wanted to give them.
I am still waiting for your source. It IS in your INTERPRETATION of the scripture.
Fortunately, the Holy Spirit does not operate according to your interpretation.
The Apostle Paul, just a few words before the ones you mentioned (in Chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians) said that the Holy Spirit has a job, a "work".
1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [8] To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [10] to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. [11] All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Paul says this is the work of the Holy Spirit. You would say this WAS the work of the Holy Spirit. But you are not the originator of this concept; you are just saying what you have been taught.
Are you willing to say the the Holy Spirit has given you a revelation that this is no longer His work? If so, then when, where how, etc.
Or will you say that you are just falling back on your own interpretation, (which is not yours, but those who taught you.)
You don't want the gifts. So guess what? You don't get them. But you will say that nobody gets them. Well, I have at least one. My wife has at least one. And I know others who have said YES to the Holy Spirit, and have received the giftings that the Holy Spirit wanted to give them.
I am still waiting for your source. It IS in your INTERPRETATION of the scripture.
Fortunately, the Holy Spirit does not operate according to your interpretation.
Add:
What you get, though, in your personal life, are the results of your interpretation.
We all get the results of our belief systems.
I may not like tongues personally, but they are still the work of the Holy Spirit. Just as the Holy Spirit is supernatural, so are the gifts. That is a clue. Most of what the church does today is definable in only what man can accomplish.
The gifts, which only the Holy Spirit can give, are supernatural. They do have a purpose. And one of their purposes is to offend. The natural man is offended by the work of the Holy Spirit. Many in the church today think with the mind of a natural man. So the gifts are very offensive. It has always been this way, and will continue until the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
What you get, though, in your personal life, are the results of your interpretation.
We all get the results of our belief systems.
I may not like tongues personally, but they are still the work of the Holy Spirit. Just as the Holy Spirit is supernatural, so are the gifts. That is a clue. Most of what the church does today is definable in only what man can accomplish.
The gifts, which only the Holy Spirit can give, are supernatural. They do have a purpose. And one of their purposes is to offend. The natural man is offended by the work of the Holy Spirit. Many in the church today think with the mind of a natural man. So the gifts are very offensive. It has always been this way, and will continue until the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
DocCas
New Member
You are not being honest. The work of the Holy Spirit continues. He regenerates, He convicts, He comforts, and He empowers those service gifts which are still active. What He does not do is cause people to babble incoherently in imitation of the true, biblical gift of foreign languages for the purposes of missionary activity. To say I don't believe the Holy Spirit has an active ministry among the people of God is just not true, and seem like a rather desparate attempt to ignore what God has said in His word, which I posted and you ignored.
Mr. Cassidy,
Several posts ago, you wrote an interpretational view of what Paul wrote.
Paul did not say all the things you said. But what you said has come from someone else. You learned it from someone else.
Do you know who originated your interpretation?
That is, who first said that Paul meant that tongues ended at 100 A.D.?
Several posts ago, you wrote an interpretational view of what Paul wrote.
Paul did not say all the things you said. But what you said has come from someone else. You learned it from someone else.
Do you know who originated your interpretation?
That is, who first said that Paul meant that tongues ended at 100 A.D.?
First of all I don't want anyone to think that I believe in the incoherent babble that people claim is the gift of tongues,I do not.I want to discuss that the N.T.teaches that spiritual gifts(including the more obviously supernatural or revelatory ones like prophecy and tongues)will continue until Jesus comes.The use of such gifts(miracles,faith,healings,prophecy,etc.)give rise to what may sometimes be called "signs and wonders".Therefore signs and wonders are part of the blessing we should pray for today.There is no text in the N.T. that teaches cessation of these gifts.But more important than this silence is the text that explicitly teaches their continuance until Jesus comes,namely,1Cor.13:8-12The main point of this passage is that love is superior to spiritual gifts like"prophecies"and "tongues"and "knowledge".The basic argument for the superiority of love is that it lasts forever while these gifts do not.They cease "when the perfect comes,"but love goes on forever.The reason given for why these gifts cease is that they are"imperfect".But when the "perfect"comes the imperfect will pass away.So the key question is:When does the"perfect"come which marks the end of the imperfect gifts like prophecy? The answer is plain in the text if we follow Paul's line of reasoning.Verse 8 says,"Love never ends;as for prophecies,they will pass away;as for tongues,they will cease;as for knowledge,it will pass away"(RSV).Why are these gifts temporary?The answer is given in verse 9:"For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect."So the reason these spiritual gifts are temporary is their incompleteness or imperfection.How long then are they to last?Verse 10 gives the answer:"When the perfect comes,the imperfect will pass away."But when is that?When does the perfect come?The answer is given in verse 12:"for now we see in a mirror dimly,but then face to face.Now I know in part;then I shall understand fully,even as I have been fully understood."The "now" of incompleteness and imperfection is contrasted with the "then" of seeing face to face and understanding even as we are understood.
[ March 13, 2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Brutus ]
[ March 13, 2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Brutus ]
Wrong, that is NOT The reasoning I had when I began my studies, so please don't imply that you know me or where I come from. I began my studies believing that tongues did indeed exist, but were just not a gift that I had. I then began my experiences with the Apostolic church and upon failing to speak in tongues during thier urgent prayer, I began to question why.
They told me I wasn't saved because I couldn't speak in tongues, but I knew the Spirit was alive and at work at me, but it did make me wonder. I wanted to KNOW for sure that I was saved and if I needed this "baptism" and to speak in tongues then I would, but I wanted to see what the Bible says...thus began my studies and the things I say today...
NOW...if we can move onto the topic and get off of your pathetic tries at phsychoanalysis...
Big problems indeed, like people claiming to have them yet ignoring every instruction Paul gave regarding them?
I have only heard a few stories of tongues that may be legitamate today, yet those are stories that people heard someone else tell them and nothing concrete ever proving they really happen. Maybe I will meet or hear from one of those infamous missionaries someday, until then, I leave that between him and God.
I continue to make my case and challenge anyone who claims to have this gift to prove that it is from God. To use it according to scripture, and they never do.
You should only want them to be able to edify the church. I have the work of the Holy Spirit in my life and I let him work in me and I use those gifts he gives me to build up and edify the body of Christ.
Who says they have to be supernatural. Why limit God? God can give the gift of teaching without making an illiterate person suddenly able to read, write and teach.
I don't say you can't have them because I don't want them. I am just saying that no one today that has a supernatural gift is using it according to the instructions God laid out in His Word, therefore they are either abusing the gift, faking it, or have a Spirit that is not Christ's.
No, just looking at the evidence at hand (the use of the so called "gifts" today) and comparing that to what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13.
Yeah and every time we give it to you ignore it and start a new thread. I remember one specific instance where you insisted that only scripture be used to make my point, no commentary. I quoted quite a few verses of which you only commented on and never for yourself gave one scripture in response. To that I gave up trying to answer you, for you are the one with leaning on your pre-conceived notions and ignoring the Word of God. Go to the archives, I am sure they are still there.
~Lorelei
Lorelei;Did I lay claim to being an apostle? You're reading more into my post than is there.The question was;were the miracles of Paul the unique"sign of an apostle?" And should we refrain from praying for signs and wonders today,since they were meant to authenticate the authority of the apostles who were the once-for-all foundation of the church(Eph.2:20)?
Christopher
New Member
(1 Cor. 13:10)
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
In the English language, the pronouns that and which refer to things, not people. How could one say 1 Corinthians 13:10 refers to Jesus? Jesus is not a thing!
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
In the English language, the pronouns that and which refer to things, not people. How could one say 1 Corinthians 13:10 refers to Jesus? Jesus is not a thing!