Jarthur001 said:
You missed the point of this verse altogether. They still are servants. Christ does not call some of the elect friends and some not. One cannot rise to a “friend” class in salvation.
I have not missed the point, but you seem to be dodging like a hunted rabbit.
The verse by itself can be made to mean anyting a person wants to expounding to it. It is the context which gives it defintion and scope. And the context says absolutely nothing in accordance to you opinion.
First, you still have not proven that Jesus is speaking to anyone OTHER THAN specifically His 12 (or eleven) in context.
Secondly, you still have not addressed the fact that Jesus placed a condition on being His 'friend'. Therefore there IS NO releationship until the condition is met.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Though Jesus is speaking to the 12, it is this verse which precludes Judus from the intent of the discorse though Judas himself is called a servant (I will no longer call you servants...).
This is about a relationship that is already established and enjoyed by Himself and the Disciples. You are applying the relationship that we WILL have at a later time into the text, but it does not support you opinion, since we have no relationship to or with God until our salvation. We are His enemies until that transforming moment.
In light of that, You still did not deal with the fact they were ALREADY servants and therefore ALREADY IN a relationship with Christ. Though they were IN a relationship ALREADY it was NOT in the NT sense (for He had not yet died whereby we are made SONS) but under the OT. (servants and possible friends).
These OT saints are called Gods servants and some even given the the blessed title of "friends of God" but we of the NEW Covenant are called His children/sons and NEVER referenced as friends like those under the OT Covenant.
Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Christ came to fulfil the OT covenant and thereby bring into fruition the NT Covenant.
I can show where God calls the differing OT saint 'friends' albeit even them it is a title reserved only for those who obeyed God with their lives unto death. I guess that is why says you are my friends IF you keep my..." ANyway, I can not find one place where the NT saint is ever refered to as "a friend" or "friend of God".
I may be wrong and open to see such verses if they are there.
We indeed are servants of Christ…(read Paul on this). The point Christ is making is that He does not treat us as servants as most masters would treat a servant. Christ threats then as friends, though they still are servants…(see Paul on this)....by laying down His life for them.
I would love to see Paul on this. Please show me the verses where Paul says this.
Paul states we are both servants of God (yes I agree to that half of truth) though we are also and indeed Children of God (not friends).
However your wording is correct in that Jesus treated them (the apostles) as friends being they were still under the OT covenant and not yet brought into the NT Covenant. The one had to be fulfilled before the other could effectively come into fruition. The title 'friends' (as I stated previously) is a seldom used title for those who lived their lives in faith as a servant of God. Niether Abraham nor Moses (friends of God) was called such until AFTER they acted toward God in obedience to His command. ButiIn either covenant we are consistantly refered to as servants because of the work God has prepared for each person to fulfil. Yet we are identified differently according to intimacy of relationship.
OT = enemy/servant-friend ----------- NT = enemy/Son-servant
What master …"earthly master" would do this? Servants are to serve the master. And we still are to serve the master....but the point is Christ love as the Head Master, is greater then any other master and therefore His love does not act as other masters. In that He laid down His life for His servants, that He calls friends.
An Earthly Master says "I'll do, IF you do" So what is Jesus is saying here:
Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jhn 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
James... A servant does what he is told to do by his master and his mission or job is not explained nor does it need to be. A servant obeys.
A friend is given more information showing a closeness and trust but still obedience is required to maintain that relationship as shown in the verse above.
Imagine the postion of a Child in contrast to a friend. :thumbs:
Jesus came to save sinners, and is why scripture says He died FOR sinners. Actually we see Jesus stating Mankind has no greater display of affection than giving his life for those he holds dear. He said "greater love no MAN has than this... That is true for Paul says that
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Not that while we were yet servants CHrist died but sinners and out right haters of God.
Christ did not die only for a few, because that is what MAN would do. Die only for righteous (as God knows whom He calls righteous in Him) or those to whom He ordained to walk in good works. But He died for the WHOLE WORLD.
WHy else does Jesus continue to tell His disciple REPEATEDLY to Love each Him AND each other. Jesus Love which Jesus acted upon was greater than the love a MAN but the Love of God toward His enemies. A man does not typically care about those who he does not know and even then will hesitate to give his life for one who is of great importance to him. God is not man that His Love is so bound but actaully commands His followers to be like Him. To love our enemies, and provide for them in their need, to pray for them.
This is why John knowing the full meaning of his own words that were inspired by the Holy Spirit we see His understanding of the phrase Whole World.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The consistancy with which James used the phrase "Whole World" is only magnified by the context, which is - all of mankind.
Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the Whole World (all sinful man)
