Do you believe in the rapture?

[OldRegular]

The concept of the pretrib rapture of the dispensationalists is a liberal doctrine [liberal in the classical meaning of the word: i.e., progressive, advocating change] in that it was developed less than 200 years ago by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth [England] Brethern and popularized in this country by E. I. Scofield, a Congregational preacher, and his reference Bible.

As I have noted on an earlier post dispensational pretrib doctrine is inconsistent with both Scripture and historic Baptist doctrine.

Of course dispensationalists will insist that all who do not follow their false hermeneutic are liberal, not in the classic sense, but in the sense that we do not believe the Bible.

 

[blackbird]

**Moderator Note**

I have received numerous complants from posters concerning the judgement and evaluation of particular posters salvation based upon their view of time frame of rapture/resurrection of the Saints

Therefore

In such a wide variety of views concerning the physical rapture/resurrection of the church---a la Pre, Mid, Post, A-Mil ect-----let each of the posters be aware that whichever view one takes---the question of that particular person's salvation should not "come into play"---ezample---I am Pre-Trib---but that doesn not give any Mid-Trib person the exclusive "right" to question my salvation----UNDERSTOOD?????!!!!!

Bro. David

 

[OldRegular]

Strange timing blackbird?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
StraightAndNarrow: //The only way to be blessed is to be a Christian.//

Your statement is in error. Unless, of course, you have a Bible verse (well several, i use just one):

Isa 19:25 (KJV1611 Edition):
Whom the Lord of hosts shal blesse, saying,
Blessed be Egypt my people,
and Assyria the work of my hands,
and Israel mine inheritance.

Which of these three groups are 'Christian' - none.
Which of these three groups is to be blessed - all three.

Referenceing Revelation 20:11-15 StraightAndNarrow says:
//I don't see anything here to indicate that there won't be saved people coming out of this judgement. Where do you get that?//

I don't see anything that says saved people are at this judgement.
Everybody there seems damned by the books of works and
there name is not in the book of life.

You didn't really answer my question about the MA 25 Judgement. Why do you believe that Isa 19:25 is linked to this judgement? Where does the BIBLE say that this judgement is to reward those who supported Israel? Where does the BIBLE say nything about a temporary salvation during the Millenium? (Give me one verse. You don't have to give me hundreds.)

I'm using the term blessed in the context of the final judgement. Are you saying that within that context the blessed aren't those who will go to Heaven which means Christians (and those saved under the first covenant). (I did leave out the first covenant clarification previously so technically I was in error.)

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Strange timing blackbird?

Unlike that of the Fire Department---its better "late" than "never"----really---I've been out for the holidays---then having to get caught up on church stuff---and just noticed the "discrepencies" not too many minutes ago!!! Really!!!

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
StraightAndNarrow: //The only way to be blessed is to be a Christian.//

Your statement is in error. Unless, of course, you have a Bible verse (well several, i use just one):

Isa 19:25 (KJV1611 Edition):
Whom the Lord of hosts shal blesse, saying,
Blessed be Egypt my people,
and Assyria the work of my hands,
and Israel mine inheritance.

Which of these three groups are 'Christian' - none.
Which of these three groups is to be blessed - all three.

Referenceing Revelation 20:11-15 StraightAndNarrow says:
//I don't see anything here to indicate that there won't be saved people coming out of this judgement. Where do you get that?//

I don't see anything that says saved people are at this judgement.
Everybody there seems damned by the books of works and
there name is not in the book of life.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

BTW all the verses I quote are rom the current KJV. I would appreciate it if you would stop posting using the 611 KJV because I find it more difficult to understand the Middle English. I don't believe there's any substantive difference between the two ecept that the1611 version contained the Apochrapha.

You didn't really answer my question about the MA 25 Judgement. Why do you believe that Isa 19:25 is linked to this judgement? Where does the BIBLE say that this judgement is to reward those who supported Israel? Where does the BIBLE say nything about a temporary salvation during the Millenium? (Give me one verse. You don't have to give me hundreds.)

I'm using the term blessed in the context of the final judgement. Are you saying that within that context the blessed aren't those who will go to Heaven which means Christians (and those saved under the first covenant). (I did leave out the first covenant clarification previously so technically I was in error.)

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by blackbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
Strange timing blackbird?

Unlike that of the Fire Department---its better "late" than "never"----really---I've been out for the holidays---then having to get caught up on church stuff---and just noticed the "discrepencies" not too many minutes ago!!! Really!!! </font>[/QUOTE]Nothing I said questioned anyones salvation, just their knowledge of Scripture and History.

 

[blackbird]

_____________
bump
____________

 

[OldRegular]

Must have been a big bump!

 

[blackbird]

I bump big!!!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
I thank you for all of your responses, however I still do not see anything that shows me the Premil rapture clearly in the book of Revelation. It is all speculation and jumping through exegetical hoops to arrive at that conclusion.

I cannot help but think that if this were such a major point as many make it that it would be addressed in the book of Revelation and to all of the churches that Jesus addressed personally.

Note the "Sequence of events".

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, (cloud of witnesses)and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, (Jesus) having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Rapture)

In the "rapture", Jesus reaps, he doesn't send "angels".


17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. (trib period)

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
The concept of the pretrib rapture of the dispensationalists is a liberal doctrine [liberal in the classical meaning of the word: i.e., progressive, advocating change] in that it was developed less than 200 years ago by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth [England] Brethern and popularized in this country by E. I. Scofield, a Congregational preacher, and his reference Bible.

As I have noted on an earlier post dispensational pretrib doctrine is inconsistent with both Scripture and historic Baptist doctrine.

Of course dispensationalists will insist that all who do not follow their false hermeneutic are liberal, not in the classic sense, but in the sense that we do not believe the Bible.

So long as the "HOLY GHOST" is "IN THIS WORLD", Satan "CAN NOT" "prevail" over "Church Saints",

what Satan is "Allowed" to do during the trib is "TOTALLY CONTRADICTORY" to everything Jesus said he "COULD NOT DO" so long as the "HOLY GHOST" was present.

Mt 16:18I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

and power (dominion) was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only "HE" (HG) who now letteth will let, until "HE" (HG) be taken out of the way.

8 And then.... shall that Wicked be revealed,

 

[CarolinaBaptist]

I definitely do not support the current teaching on the rapture from the likes of LaHaye and Van Impe. There is no such thing as a 2 stage coming of Christ. He will come again, and ALL will see Him in His glory and those blessed believers who are still alive will meet Him in the air. Please show me Scripture, without taking it out of it's context, that support the fantasies and fairy tales of dispensational futurism.

 

[Mel Miller]

Blackbird
Moderator

Thank you for the reminder about "judging" other
people. OldRegular seems bent on this procedure.

On a thread concerning our views on an "any moment rapture, and in particular his view
of a "general resurrection" of saved and lost,

OldRegular stated that I am "completely wrong on
Endtime events" without so much as giving a
single Scriptural reference to support his
statement or to even mention what I had said
that caused him to make this caustic remark.

Above he makes an unkind reference to those of
the Dispensationalonal viewpoint:

"Dispensationalists will insist that all who do not follow their false hermeneutic are liberal, not in the classic sense, but in the sense that we do not believe the Bible".

OldRegular seems to claim that he stands above
others in the comprehension of Endtime Events and that he is not guilty of using a "false hermeneutic" like the Dispensationalists.

This attitude of superiority is not condusive
to good realations among brethren. We should
respect the opinions of other Believers who
disagree without making a blanket charge such
as these; especially without back-up data.

Mel Miller Junior Member

 

[HankD]

Dispensationalists will insist that all who do not follow their false hermeneutic are liberal, not in the classic sense, but in the sense that we do not believe the Bible

Not at all OldReg, non-dispensationalists have a different method of interpreting and understanding the Bible in certain areas.

Besides, those who are born again are all my brethren whether liberal or conservative or somewhere inbetween.

HankD

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Respectfully, I think you should support your
statement with Scripture before stating it to
be a fact. Your write:

//In the "rapture", Jesus reaps, he doesn't send "angels".//

In the most explicit description of "gathering
the Elect from earth to heaven in the days
after the great tribulation," Jesus clearly
states that "The Son of Man will gather them
and HE will send the Angels" (Mark 13:24,27).

The Angels, having been "sent" by Jesus, will
complete the "gathering of the Elect out of
the 4 winds from all extremities of the
heavenS".

Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net