Do you believe that there has been millions and millions of years?

[Ed Edwards]

Judging from what I find in the Bible/prophecy,

we should be more concerned with the "end days" than the "Creation days",

AMen, Brother Me4Him -- You are so RIGHT ON!
even more, we aught to live in the now, which we have come control over ourselves, well we aught to.

We're very close to stepping "out of time", into "no time",...."Eternity". :thumbs:

This is a totally un-scriptural statement indicating confusion on the part of somebody (usually some past teacher several teachings back that was not checked out very close). Feel free to show how the Bible says that (God's most important teachings are repeated several times, I think this teaching should be found at least 3 times in the Bible).

 

[Me4Him]

This is a totally un-scriptural statement indicating confusion on the part of somebody (usually some past teacher several teachings back that was not checked out very close). Feel free to show how the Bible says that (God's most important teachings are repeated several times, I think this teaching should be found at least 3 times in the Bible).

I was referring to the "Rapture" being "close at hand".

Too many prophecies focused on this time period, so focused, if one fails, they all fail,

You and I both know that isn't going to occur.

This "New world Order" being established through the "banking system" is one of the last prophecies to be fulfilled before the Rapture,

The AC doesn't organize the "system", he seizes control of it from those who do, uprooting three in the process, and enslaves them under his authority,

Like Haman, they believe they are construction a "Gallows" for man, but it end up hanging them.

"SIN" (this evil Empire) can't have dominion over the "body of Christ".

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:

There 5-6 other prophecies that all focus on this time period as well.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Good job Marcia, you are right on target.

A few other things come to mind like Mt.St. Helens sort of showed us how we can count on our age measuring devices. Talk about happy accidents how about all the birds, bees,fishes, and mammals male and female all with muscles, bones,nerve systems, and the ability to procreate. There are thousands of these creatures all happy accidents, what do you suppose the mathematical probabilities of that happening randomly would be? Where did the big bang come from? What caused the big bang? Life only comes from life. If there is life there must be a life giver. Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior Himself gave witness of the writings of Moses that they were Scripture. I am not willing to question my Lord. In 150 years not one missing link has been found .Evolutionists keep changing their story while the story of the Bible stays the same and the more we examine it the more sense it makes.

God did not need billions and billions of years or even 6 days and He did not need to rest on the seventh day because of all the hard work He had done. God could have created all of creation and everything in it in less than 6/10's of a trillionth of a nano second. Each creature has it's own unique DNA which contains enough information to fill 1,000 volumes of an Encyclopedia Britannica certainly demands a designer. To be an evolutionist just requires to much blind faith.

 

[Grasshopper]

Good job Marcia, you are right on target.

A few other things come to mind like Mt.St. Helens sort of showed us how we can count on our age measuring devices.

What did we learn?

Talk about happy accidents how about all the birds, bees,fishes, and mammals male and female all with muscles, bones,nerve systems, and the ability to procreate. There are thousands of these creatures all happy accidents, what do you suppose the mathematical probabilities of that happening randomly would be?

How does this disprove an Old Earth? Believing in an old Earth does not equate to believing in evolution.

Where did the big bang come from?

God.

What caused the big bang?

God spoke.

Life only comes from life. If there is life there must be a life giver. Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior Himself gave witness of the writings of Moses that they were Scripture. I am not willing to question my Lord. In 150 years not one missing link has been found .Evolutionists keep changing their story while the story of the Bible stays the same and the more we examine it the more sense it makes.

Believing in an old earth does not equate to being an evolutionists.

God did not need billions and billions of years or even 6 days and He did not need to rest on the seventh day because of all the hard work He had done. God could have created all of creation and everything in it in less than 6/10's of a trillionth of a nano second.

No believer of either view that I know of disputes this.

Each creature has it's own unique DNA which contains enough information to fill 1,000 volumes of an Encyclopedia Britannica certainly demands a designer. To be an evolutionist just requires to much blind faith.

Believing in an old earth does not equate to believing in evolution.

 

[HankD]

Implied age could be the answer.

How old was the wine at the wedding of Cana?

Jesus made that wine in a moment of time.

Yet it was wine. But what does it take in terms of time and procedure to make wine?

It takes a growing season, sunshine, rain, the time and process of harvesting the grapes, the squeezing (trampling), the fermentation, etc, etc, etc...

None of these things happened to the wine at the wedding at Cana.
Yet there it was , "the best".

If Jesus could make the wine (apparently several years old) at the wedding of Cana in a moment (without the rain, sunshine and procedures, etc) , shouldn't He be able to make a universe (apparently 10 billion years old) in six days (without the conservation of momentum, homogeneity, etc)?

If not, why not?

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

Implied age could be the answer.

How old was the wine at the wedding of Cana?

Jesus made that wine in a moment of time.

Yet it was wine. But what does it take in terms of time and procedure to make wine?

It takes a growing season, sunshine, rain, the time and process of harvesting the grapes, the squeezing (trampling), the fermentation, etc, etc, etc...

None of these things happened to the wine at the wedding at Cana.
Yet there it was , "the best".

If Jesus could make the wine (apparently several years old) at the wedding of Cana in a moment (without the rain, sunshine and procedures, etc) , shouldn't He be able to make a universe (apparently 10 billion years old) in six days (without the conservation of momentum, homogeneity, etc)?

If not, why not?

HankD

Who says He couldn't, outside of believers? The question is: did He?

Could He have spoke into existence the Universe bilions of years ago and used all the scientific laws He created to finish His creative act? Could He not have divided those stages of creation into 6 "days"? Could He not then at the end of he 6th day create Adam?

Does a 13 billion year old creation make it any less glorious or miraculous?

 

[Me4Him]

Science, and the interpretation thereof, conforms to an image of this world, that is of "FUNDING" a No God theory.

Let's face it, if science said God created the world, funding of science projects would "dry up",

the world will only finanace those projects which seeks to confirm it's theory of no God.

Science is clearly not "unbias" in it's interpretations, else there would be "No funding".

 

[HankD]

Who says He couldn't, outside of believers? The question is: did He?

Could He have spoke into existence the Universe bilions of years ago and used all the scientific laws He created to finish His creative act? Could He not have divided those stages of creation into 6 "days"? Could He not then at the end of he 6th day create Adam?

Does a 13 billion year old creation make it any less glorious or miraculous?

Obviously He could have used whatever time frame He chose.
The Genesis account indicates 24 hour days. I have no reason to believe otherwise especially since science has changed it's mind several times concerning origins even within my lifetime.

I know that some believers mix the Scripture account of creation with the "Big Bang" theory for the universe origin(s) [science now has a multi-universe theory] followed by the "Primordial Soup" theory for beginnings of life. I can't.

IMO, It is not primarily about a "13 billion year" creation and its gloriousness or miraculousness but the integrity/infallibility of the Word of God.

However, we are free to believe as we wish and I don't begrudge Christians who want to "allegorize" the "days" of the Genesis 1 creation account.

What really matters is the "new creation".

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

Obviously He could have used whatever time frame He chose.
The Genesis account indicates 24 hour days. HankD

Where does the Bible teach 24 hour days? Especially if you insist on literalism. Do not literal mornings and literal evenings require a literal sun? Yet the sun wasn't created till the 4th day.

 

[Swordfinn]

Even though my Ph.D. is in Church History, I now hold to an Old Earth view after reading Dr. Hugh Ross. I use to hold to a Young Earth view, but changed my mind(repented) after reading extensively on the subject.
Dr. Joseph Finn

 

[Revmitchell]

Even though my Ph.D. is in Church History, I now hold to an Old Earth view after reading Dr. Hugh Ross. I use to hold to a Young Earth view, but changed my mind(repented) after reading extensively on the subject.
Dr. Joseph Finn

http://www.icr.org/article/days-do-matter/

 

[Revmitchell]

Where does the Bible teach 24 hour days? Especially if you insist on literalism. Do not literal mornings and literal evenings require a literal sun? Yet the sun wasn't created till the 4th day.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light. And there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light that it was good. And God divided between the light and the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

God could have created the universe in any time frame He chose. The Bible looks at a 24 hour day six day creation . I accept that at face value because it makes way more sense then the other accounts. By the way maybe 15 billion years is not long enough for creation of the universe so let's give 15 billion trillion years and let them have an exception to any scientific law they want and come up with any new story they want, they can call that science too. A hint might be that Adam and Eve were created as adults thus having the appearance of age. God said He created it does'nt say anywhere God said bang.

 

[saturneptune]

God has to be amused at his human creation debating how He created the universe. The truth is that neither side knows for sure. All we know is that God did it.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

You got that right!:type:

 

[Grasshopper]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light. And there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light that it was good. And God divided between the light and the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

I still don't see a 24 hour day and niether did I see you address the morning and evening problem. How do you have a morning and evening without a sun?

 

[Grasshopper]

God has to be amused at his human creation debating how He created the universe. The truth is that neither side knows for sure. All we know is that God did it.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Marcia]

They make the point that creation myths are written in the same style. narrative. And I see the similarities with the Genesis accounts like man being made from the earth. God breathed life into man and the other myths hold that man has divine blood in them and take after in a fashion deity. That the stars were placed to show seasons. That there was a flood and man and animals were saved by a boat. I could go on. But essentially the literary style is the same. Its the details that are different. Though I will admit your last statment that its possible that they all these myths are reflective of a truth and it could be that Genesis is accurate and these are pagan attempts to pass them on. However, so that you're not too smug in your confidence I could also say that the same cultures wrote the same way because they were the same peoples and the bible is a product of that same people group trying to explain their God as opposed to the summerian gods. In which case Genesis would then be valuable in what the writer is trying to say about God rather than participate in emperical data transfer of the creation event.

I'm not being smug to believe the creation account is God's word and is true. The Bible is not a record of man's view of God but rather God's revelation to man.

I'm sorry, but the style is not the same in the pagan accounts as the bible. It's very different. Also, what they write about is so clearly mythical. God's account is so very down to earth (pun intended), spare, and simple, compared to the dramatic pagan tales. The Enuma Elish is vague, too generalized and poorly told. It's terrible, in fact, from a literary viewpoint, whereas Gen. 1 is a masterpiece. God says so much in so few words.

 

[Marcia]

Where does the Bible teach 24 hour days? Especially if you insist on literalism. Do not literal mornings and literal evenings require a literal sun? Yet the sun wasn't created till the 4th day.

God can create the morning and evening without a sun - he could provide the light. This showed he does not need the sun and moon to do it. This also was a way for God to denounce the sun and moon as gods at the time - which is why the term "sun" and "moon" are not there, but instead, the greater and lesser lights.

The greater light "governed" the day, the lesser one "governed" the night. So day and night existed already without the sun and moon.

 

[Marcia]

Who says He couldn't, outside of believers? The question is: did He?

Could He have spoke into existence the Universe bilions of years ago and used all the scientific laws He created to finish His creative act? Could He not have divided those stages of creation into 6 "days"? Could He not then at the end of he 6th day create Adam?

Does a 13 billion year old creation make it any less glorious or miraculous?

The problem with this is that you have to have had death going on before sin.