Sooooo, when do you believe the Church drew its first spiritual breath of life, given it by Christ?
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Do you believe the Church started at Pentecost?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
Sooooo, when do you believe the Church drew its first spiritual breath of life, given it by Christ?
I believe they received the indwelling Holy Spirit when he breathed on them!
Here's another reason why ...
"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:5-7)
On the night before Jesus was crucified, He said that now He was going to the Father. He was not referring to the Ascension because that was still a month and a half away. He was referring to the time of His crucifixion and resurrection. Then Jesus said that unless He "goes away," the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) will not come. Jesus "went away" to the Father on the day that He was resurrected, and that is why He was able to impart the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit to the disciples on the evening of Resurrection Sunday.
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I agree and believe this confirms he ascended the morrow after the Sabbath.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. John 20:17
I believe the church began in seed form with the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. There was a transition period from Jesus' earthly ministry all the way until A.D. 70 in which the Old Covenant was being faded out and the New Covenant was brought in with the resurrection of Christ.
Dan 9:27 And he [Messiah] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...
Jesus confirmed/strengthened the covenant with Old Covenant Israel (the natural branches) for one week (seven years).
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
However, during this focus on Israel and confirming "the covenant" including enforcing the Law before the atonement, Christ prepared His converts to embrace the New Covenant.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
In the "midst of the week" (after 3 1/2 years of ministry) He was "cut off" and He "caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease" by His ultimate sacrifice on the Cross.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
What about the remaining 3 1/2 years? I believe it was 3 1/2 years until the conversion of Cornelius and the Apostle Paul when "the covenant" with natural Israel ended and the Gentiles were given the word of the gospel. The definition of Israel changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.
The Old Covenant was a geopolitical covenant of earthly descent and a community comprising regenerates and unregenerates. The primary sign of the covenant--circumcision--was propagated at physical birth and pointed toward a future faith.
The New Covenant is a perfect covenant of spiritual rebirth and is an invisible covenant of regenerates only in which "all shall know Me from the least to the greatest." The primary sign of the covenant--baptism--is (supposed to be) propagated at spiritual birth and points back at existing faith.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Jer 11:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 11:2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name [Israel], A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Under the Old Covenant the unbelievers stayed in the natural olive tree and wilted off. When The New Covenant was enforced and the "covenant" with Israel was finished being confirmed, the unbelieving natural branches were cut off from the olive tree of true Israel and hardened in blindness. God then grafted the wild branches of the believing Gentiles into this olive tree. The resulting "Israel" under the auspices of the New Covenant is a tree in which all members are believers.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old[/b]. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Indeed, the old was ready to vanish away. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians from the perspective of the Old Covenant composition to escape to the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was put away in its entirety upon the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
Dan 9:27 And he [Messiah] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...
Jesus confirmed/strengthened the covenant with Old Covenant Israel (the natural branches) for one week (seven years).
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
However, during this focus on Israel and confirming "the covenant" including enforcing the Law before the atonement, Christ prepared His converts to embrace the New Covenant.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
In the "midst of the week" (after 3 1/2 years of ministry) He was "cut off" and He "caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease" by His ultimate sacrifice on the Cross.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
What about the remaining 3 1/2 years? I believe it was 3 1/2 years until the conversion of Cornelius and the Apostle Paul when "the covenant" with natural Israel ended and the Gentiles were given the word of the gospel. The definition of Israel changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.
The Old Covenant was a geopolitical covenant of earthly descent and a community comprising regenerates and unregenerates. The primary sign of the covenant--circumcision--was propagated at physical birth and pointed toward a future faith.
The New Covenant is a perfect covenant of spiritual rebirth and is an invisible covenant of regenerates only in which "all shall know Me from the least to the greatest." The primary sign of the covenant--baptism--is (supposed to be) propagated at spiritual birth and points back at existing faith.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Jer 11:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 11:2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name [Israel], A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Under the Old Covenant the unbelievers stayed in the natural olive tree and wilted off. When The New Covenant was enforced and the "covenant" with Israel was finished being confirmed, the unbelieving natural branches were cut off from the olive tree of true Israel and hardened in blindness. God then grafted the wild branches of the believing Gentiles into this olive tree. The resulting "Israel" under the auspices of the New Covenant is a tree in which all members are believers.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old[/b]. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Indeed, the old was ready to vanish away. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians from the perspective of the Old Covenant composition to escape to the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was put away in its entirety upon the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
Yes..and I will add...
But watch! That evening, Jesus specifically told the disciples to touch Him. Something had changed
Notice the sequence of events: On Sunday morning, the risen Jesus told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet gone to the Father. Then He told Mary to tell the disciples that He was going to the Father. [Then He went to the Father.] That evening, He had returned from the Father and He told the disciples to touch Him! They believed that He had risen from the dead, and they received salvation ( Romans 10:9). Then Jesus breathed the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit into the disciples as an exact parallel of breathing spiritual life into Adam.
strange that you hve God casting away the jewish peoples in AD 70, but paul saw that view as "God forbid" that He was NOT done with israel, and that when the nation comes back to God, it will be blessing to all!
I rather trust in what he had to say!
Tom Butler
New Member
A question to add to this discussion is this: What did the church have at Pentecost that it did not have before Pentecost?
The answer is nothing.
Aha, one might say, they had power. The Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost.
But they had power before Pentecost. They healed the sick and cast out demons.
They also had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. I mentioned John 20:22 in another post "Jesus breathed on them and said, 'receive the Holy Spirit.
From the time that Jesus left to to Pentecost, the church seemed weak and afraid. That's because when Jesus left, his power went with Him. Ten days later, when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, He came in power. But remember, the disciples had received the Spirit earlier. First, He indwelt; then He empowered. More accurately, He re-empowered.
The answer is nothing.
Aha, one might say, they had power. The Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost.
But they had power before Pentecost. They healed the sick and cast out demons.
They also had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. I mentioned John 20:22 in another post "Jesus breathed on them and said, 'receive the Holy Spirit.
From the time that Jesus left to to Pentecost, the church seemed weak and afraid. That's because when Jesus left, his power went with Him. Ten days later, when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, He came in power. But remember, the disciples had received the Spirit earlier. First, He indwelt; then He empowered. More accurately, He re-empowered.
Tom Butler
New Member
A pastor-friend of mine, Ben Stratton, has a Yahoo website, Landmark Southern Baptists. I excerpt here some comments by O. W. Taylor, who was a pastor and also editor of the Baptist and Reflector, the Tennessee Baptist newspaper.
If you are a Yahoo groups member, your password will get you into the site:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandmarkSouthernBaptist/message/552
If you are a Yahoo groups member, your password will get you into the site:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandmarkSouthernBaptist/message/552
Yes! this is what I see too!
Tom Butler
New Member
So we won't derail this thread, I''m going to start a new thread on the work of the Holy Spirit.
Where in the world did I say ANYWHERE that God "cast[] away the jewish peoples"?
The New Covenant made with the houses of Israel and Judah was made with the promised remnant of Old Covenant Israel that God said He would preserve. The prophets declared that God would preserve a remnant of Israel AND that through Israel Gentiles would be saved. This remnant of Israel was the Jewish converts of Jesus and the Apostles.
The New Covenant was inaugurated with the Jewish houses of Israel and Judah at Pentecost. After 3 1/2 years of confirming the covenant to geopolitical Israel, God cut off the unbelieving Jews and grafted the believing Gentiles into Israel.
Jer 11:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 11:2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
...
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree [or "shoot"], wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
You cannot get any clearer than this. We believing Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree, which is Israel. Israel "after the flesh" was cast away. True Israel--the remnant of believing Israel and the Gentiles grafted in--still remains. This is the constitution of the New Covenant.
[color=blueRom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. [b]For I also am an Israelite[/b], of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.[/u][/color]
The constitution of the New Covenant is Jew and Gentile being equal before God. The unbelieving Jews were cut off and the believing Gentiles were grafted in, making the olive tree of Israel now Jew and Gentile who believe.
I believe that will sovereignly keep the New Covenant consisting of both Jews and Gentiles.
I do not even rule out the possibility that there will be a revival of Jews in the future, but I don't believe Romans 11 makes this necessary--only hypothetically possible.
I believe that a geopolitical entity consisting of mostly ethnic Jews in actual covenant with God and returning to the types and shadows of the old system is simply not scripturally warranted. This does NOT mean that I believe that God "cast away the Jewish peoples" one iota. It just means that God cast away the old geopolitical temple system and ethnic privilege. For a Jew to receive God's blessings now and forever, he must come to Christ--just like everyone else (horror of horrors!).
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
The New Covenant is a full and present reality according to Hebrews 8:6-13. The Old Covenant is no more. The tokens of the Old Covenant are no more. They have been fulfilled in Christ, the high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. There will NEVER be another temple with sacrifices actually accepted by God.
There is not now, nor will there ever be a geopolitical entity that is in covenant with God and practices types and shadows of Christ with God's blessing.
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Church "Ekklesia" is from two Greek words meaning "an assembly" and "to call out" or "called out ones.". I believe the called out has always been going on in both old and new testament.
The answer is Everything! The end of the old covenant, the New Eternal Covenant, Remission of sins, individual access to the Father, the eternal priesthood, & the Indwelling. You nailed it when you said the Power left with Jesus. Jesus was temporarily empowering the apostles until the time of the indwelling. Empowering is not the same as eternal indwelling. There was no New Testament Church until the indwelling at Pentecost.