Do you believe the once saved can again be lost?

[canadyjd]

Even against their will? What if they change their mind and decide they no longer want God? Or do you believe they can't do that, if saved?

They belong to God. No matter what is going on in their lives, no matter what they do, God will never forsake them, even if their faith waviers. God Holy Spirit indwells permanently. He guides, He convicts, He grieves. God disciplines those He loves.

Peace to you

 

[37818]

.

If you believe Jesus then you do.

Joh 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Joh 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Or do you think you are in Christ when you are not saved?

I am of the persuasion everyone Christ died for are in His vine.

1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[37818]

Even against their will?

Where in God's word?

What if they change their mind and decide they no longer want God?

Again, where in God's word?

Or do you believe they can't do that, if saved?

Not can't, but if saved would not.

 

[Silverhair]

Have you ever encountered anyone that believed you could lose your salvation and regain it by repenting? Hebrews 6 that is “impossible” because you would have to crucify Christ again.

In chapter 6 of Hebrews, just after this statement, the author states he is convinced of better things concerning them… the things that accompany salvation.

These things that accompany salvation include ministry and perseverance.

Additionally, there are many passages which declare a person in a right relationship with God will not lose that relationship, not the least of which Jesus stating those people are in the hands of the Father and no one can take them away.

Peace to you

You said "So no, you can’t lose “salvation”." and yet we see in Hebrews 6:4-6 that they can.

That is the odd bit of logic I was referring to.

I agree that those that are trusting in God will be saved but note the condition stated, "a person in a right relationship with God"

 

[Silverhair]

.
I am of the persuasion everyone Christ died for are in His vine.

1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Who did Christ die for?

Heb 2:9...He might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all...

Rom 5:6 ... Christ died for the ungodly.

So are all people in His vine @37818

 

[37818]

You said "So no, you can’t lose “salvation”." and yet we see in Hebrews 6:4-6 that they can.

That is the odd bit of logic I was referring to.

I agree that those that are trusting in God will be saved but note the condition stated, "a person in a right relationship with God"

I am also of the persuasion salvation is lost by never obtainning the salvation.

 

[canadyjd]

You said "So no, you can’t lose “salvation”." and yet we see in Hebrews 6:4-6 that they can.

That is the odd bit of logic I was referring to.

I agree that those that are trusting in God will be saved but note the condition stated, "a person in a right relationship with God"

The author of Hebrews is answering a question that has been posed to him. What of those that have “tasted the heavenly gift” and then fallen away. “Tasted” means to sample. There were those that went from region to religion trying to find what suited them.

He answers that were that possible, it would be impossible to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again.

I believe he saying those in right relationship with God (that is salvation in no way qualified) will not be lost.

If you believe that Hebrews 6 means a person is able to lose their salvation, then will you acknowledge salvation can never be regained? The passage is very clear about that.

I have never known of anyone claiming Hebrews 6 means you can lose salvation and also accept that once lost it is impossible to get it again.

So, you believe salvation can be lost, according to Hebrews 6. Will you acknowledge Hebrews 6 clearly states it can never be regained?

Peace to you

 

[37818]

So are all people in His vine @37818[?]

Yes.
But. 1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[37818]

Even against their will? What if they change their mind and decide they no longer want God? Or do you believe they can't do that, if saved?

It is by one's will one chooses God's will. John 1:12-13.

 

[easternstar]

They belong to God. No matter what is going on in their lives, no matter what they do, God will never forsake them, even if their faith waviers. God Holy Spirit indwells permanently. He guides, He convicts, He grieves. God disciplines those He loves.

Peace to you

Where in God's word?
Again, where in God's word?

Not can't, but if saved would not.

Hebrews 6.
So, according to your logic, Satan could not have rebelled against God. But he had a free will, just as we all do. And by an act of that will, he turned from God, just as we can do, even after we are saved. Does God give us free will, up until we accept salvation, but then take it away from us?
So, no we can't 'lose' our salvation, but by a deliberate, conscious act of our free will, we can forfeit our salvation. Once saved, we do not become robots.

 

[Silverhair]

The author of Hebrews is answering a question that has been posed to him. What of those that have “tasted the heavenly gift” and then fallen away. “Tasted” means to sample. There were those that went from region to religion trying to find what suited them.

He answers that were that possible, it would be impossible to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again.

I believe he saying those in right relationship with God (that is salvation in no way qualified) will not be lost.

If you believe that Hebrews 6 means a person is able to lose their salvation, then will you acknowledge salvation can never be regained? The passage is very clear about that.

I have never known of anyone claiming Hebrews 6 means you can lose salvation and also accept that once lost it is impossible to get it again.

So, you believe salvation can be lost, according to Hebrews 6. Will you acknowledge Hebrews 6 clearly states it can never be regained?

Peace to you

If one has heard the gospel message and has chosen to trust in God for his salvation they have exhibited a change of mind from rejecting God to accepting Him as Lord and savior.

If after that time they should then repudiate that faith due to a change of mind about the God they had followed then it would not be logical to expect them to at a later date then to turn back to trusting in God.

I take these warning seriously as what good is it to warn someone about something that can’t happen? Remember these are not people that have fallen in some sin for which they will confess and ask forgiveness these are people that have repudiated the one means they have for salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. Temporally, but never eternally.

Sealed by the Holy Spirit, which males it eternally secured and kept

 

[Silverhair]

Yes.
But. 1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

But the bible would disagree with you 37. Not all are in His vine. Only those that are saved are in His vine.

Remember you said "I am of the persuasion everyone Christ died for are in His vine."

The bible says He died for all of us ungodly sinners so that all could be saved by the grace of God through faith.

 

[37818]

Hebrews 6.
So, according to your logic, Satan could not have rebelled against God. But he had a free will, just as we all do. And by an act of that will, he turned from God, just as we can do, even after we are saved. Does God give us free will, up until we accept salvation, but then take it away from us?
So, no we can't 'lose' our salvation, but by a deliberate, conscious act of our free will, we can forfeit our salvation. Once saved, we do not become robots.

Nope. According to your logic. My view it is God who saves and keeps. Your agreement is not required.

 

[37818]

The bible says He died for all of us ungodly sinners so that all could be saved by the grace of God through faith.

On this we agree.

 

[canadyjd]

Hebrews 6.
So, according to your logic, Satan could not have rebelled against God. But he had a free will, just as we all do. And by an act of that will, he turned from God, just as we can do, even after we are saved. Does God give us free will, up until we accept salvation, but then take it away from us?
So, no we can't 'lose' our salvation, but by a deliberate, conscious act of our free will, we can forfeit our salvation. Once saved, we do not become robots.

Satan? What are you talking about?

It’s not “my logic”. Hebrews 6 is clear. If a person could lose their salvation it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again. Do you believe what Hebrews 6 says?

We do not have “free will” at all. That is the second lie of Satan in the garden that they would be “like God” knowing good and evil. Although they did know good and evil, as God does, they are not “like God” in the sense they could always chose good over evil.

We have human will. Prior to salvation, that human will is enslaved to sin (see Romans 6-7. Our human will is influenced by many sources, internally and externally. It is not “free” to chose anything other than what it desires.

Prior to salvation, the human will has no desire to seek God, see Romans 1.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

If one has heard the gospel message and has chosen to trust in God for his salvation they have exhibited a change of mind from rejecting God to accepting Him as Lord and savior.

If after that time they should then repudiate that faith due to a change of mind about the God they had followed then it would not be logical to expect them to at a later date then to turn back to trusting in God.

I take these warning seriously as what good is it to warn someone about something that can’t happen? Remember these are not people that have fallen in some sin for which they will confess and ask forgiveness these are people that have repudiated the one means they have for salvation.

Will you answer my question directly or not?

Di you believe what Hebrews 6 says…

According to Hebrews 6, if a persons falls away it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again.

Just be consistent. If you want to use Hebrews 6 to say you can lose your salvation then you must acknowledge such a person could never get it back.

Peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Joh 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Joh 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Or do you think you are in Christ when you are not saved?

Matt. 7:16-17. "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." See also Matt. 12:33-35; Luke 6:43-45.
Christians must bear fruit. 'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them' (Eph. 2:10). If we are born of the Spirit of God we will produce the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Gal. 5:22-23). If we are still born of the flesh, we will produce the fruit described in vs. 19-21. If the fruit of the Spirit we produce is good but insufficient, we will undergo the pruning described in John 15:2, which is nothing else than the chastening of Heb. 12:5-11.
Therefore, a 'branch in Me that does not bear fruit' must mean nothing more than a professing believer, joined to a church of Christ, but not joined to Him by the New Birth. The idea that someone can be born again, made a new creation one moment, and then be 'de-created' the next, and then maybe born again again (!) sometime later, is a nonsense.

 

[easternstar]

Nope. According to your logic. My view it is God who saves and keeps. Your agreement is not required.

So, your agreement is required to accept salvation, but then you are forcefully kept even if you later change your mind. Not logical. Not consistent with God's character or the free will that He gives all beings, even angels and Satan.

 

[easternstar]

Satan? What are you talking about?

It’s not “my logic”. Hebrews 6 is clear. If a person could lose their salvation it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again. Do you believe what Hebrews 6 says?

We do not have “free will” at all. That is the second lie of Satan in the garden that they would be “like God” knowing good and evil. Although they did know good and evil, as God does, they are not “like God” in the sense they could always chose good over evil.

We have human will. Prior to salvation, that human will is enslaved to sin (see Romans 6-7. Our human will is influenced by many sources, internally and externally. It is not “free” to chose anything other than what it desires.

Prior to salvation, the human will has no desire to seek God, see Romans 1.

Peace to you

I believe Hebrews 6. It clearly affirms that salvation can be rejected by those who once accepted it. And if they continue by a consciuos decision of their will to reject that salvation, they will not be renewed to repentance.
What I am talking about in regard to Satan is that he had a choice, as do all created sentient beings including the angels.