Do you believe the once saved can again be lost?

[atpollard]

Yes I read your post #93 and dealt with it in post #94

I get the feeling that we are talking past each other here, so I will offer "no comment" and just let that point die.

What you have given is your opinion @atpollard.

I assume you mean in the commentary on the soils, (in which case I agree and thought I was making that clear) rather than post #93 (which offers far more than just my opinion).

You say that Luke 8:13-14 soils were not really saved and I say they were as that is what scripture shows us.
For you to deny their salvation is to give another meaning to the word believe.

Stop there. I said no such thing. For the record, I feel singularly unqualified to make ANY pronouncement about the "salvation" of any other person. It falls WAY above my pay grade. In a similar light, I am VERY uncomfortable telling God "whom he died for" and approach the subject of "ATONEMENT" with equal caution.

It is a practical matter of gardening that a seed that sprouts and will ultimately thrive and a seed that sprouts and will ultimately die both look the same when they first sprout. So, too, I cannot tell who will finish a race well and who will ultimately not. "The proof of the pudding IS in the eating." (So, too, salvation.)

Who breaks the hard ground, removes the stones and pulls the weeds so that the SEED can grow to produce a harvest?
US or GOD or BOTH?
[You will have to answer that question for your own heart, as I have answered it for mine.]

We are the soil in which God sows the seed. How we respond shows what kind of soil we are.

... and so you make your choice for your heart.

 

[Van]

It seems to me that I read they believed for a while and fell away.

Did I read that wrong?

That is what I said. Here is my quote:

Soil #2, Luke 8:13 believed superficially but that belief was NOT credited as righteousness, and therefore was NOT transferred into Christ, was NOT born anew, and Jesus never knew him.​

​

 

[Van]

Van you have to get over this idea that everyone is against you or is attacking you. It really does get tiring.

Questioning your views is what a discussion board is all about.

The bible is clear that some that have trusted in Christ and been saved will apostatize/fall away.

You can either believe the bible or you can believe what you need to find to support your views.

Yet another post totally addressing me, thus the predicted change of subject.

Once God puts an individual human spirit into Christ, they are kept for an inheritance in heaven.

When we are indwelt, are we indwelt unless we lose our salvation or forever. I believe scripture.

Does our human faith automatically compel God to save us? Jesus told those who had professed faith and worked in ministry, "I never knew you." Thus "faith" that God does not credit as righteousness, is not saving faith.

How about, if God causes a person to be born anew, can a human spirit somehow become "un-born anew?" The loss of salvation crowd has no answer, so they might change the subject.

Folks note that the quoted response above did not even attempt to address any of the verses that alluded to Once Saved, Always Saved.

Any explanation of 1 Peter 1:3-5? Nope John 14:16? Nope Folks who "believe" but do not give what is needed, are not saved. If God's love for you is not reflected in your love for others, you were never saved.

Automatic salvation upon professing faith is a destructive heresy. Romans 4! We must have a faith like Abraham's faith, i.e. a credited as righteousness faith. Romans 4:16

 

[Silverhair]

That is what I said. Here is my quote:

​

Soil #2, Luke 8:13 believed superficially but that belief was NOT credited as righteousness, and therefore was NOT transferred into Christ, was NOT born anew, and Jesus never knew him. ​

​

But that is not what Luke 8:13 says Van. You are adding your own personal views to the text.

I get the feeling that we are talking past each other here, so I will offer "no comment" and just let that point die.


I assume you mean in the commentary on the soils, (in which case I agree and thought I was making that clear) rather than post #93 (which offers far more than just my opinion).


Stop there. I said no such thing. For the record, I feel singularly unqualified to make ANY pronouncement about the "salvation" of any other person. It falls WAY above my pay grade. In a similar light, I am VERY uncomfortable telling God "whom he died for" and approach the subject of "ATONEMENT" with equal caution.

It is a practical matter of gardening that a seed that sprouts and will ultimately thrive and a seed that sprouts and will ultimately die both look the same when they first sprout. So, too, I cannot tell who will finish a race well and who will ultimately not. "The proof of the pudding IS in the eating." (So, too, salvation.)




... and so you make your choice for your heart.

So we will leave it at that.

 

[Silverhair]

Yet another post totally addressing me, thus the predicted change of subject.

Once God puts an individual human spirit into Christ, they are kept for an inheritance in heaven.

When we are indwelt, are we indwelt unless we lose our salvation or forever. I believe scripture.

Does our human faith automatically compel God to save us? Jesus told those who had professed faith and worked in ministry, "I never knew you." Thus "faith" that God does not credit as righteousness, is not saving faith.

How about, if God causes a person to be born anew, can a human spirit somehow become "un-born anew?" The loss of salvation crowd has no answer, so they might change the subject.

Folks note that the quoted response above did not even attempt to address any of the verses that alluded to Once Saved, Always Saved.

Any explanation of 1 Peter 1:3-5? Nope John 14:16? Nope Folks who "believe" but do not give what is needed, are not saved. If God's love for you is not reflected in your love for others, you were never saved.

Automatic salvation upon professing faith is a destructive heresy. Romans 4! We must have a faith like Abraham's faith, i.e. a credited as righteousness faith. Romans 4:16

Van I see that again you want to make any comment just about you. It is sad to see someone so insecure.

I ask again how you come to the conclusion that soils # 2 & 3 were not saved other then it just being what you need to find.

The text is clear so why do you not believe it?

 

[Charlie24]

That is what I said. Here is my quote:

​

Soil #2, Luke 8:13 believed superficially but that belief was NOT credited as righteousness, and therefore was NOT transferred into Christ, was NOT born anew, and Jesus never knew him. ​

​

If their belief was not credited for righteousness what did they fall away from?

 

[Van]

Now that is just pure speculation on your part Van.

The text is clear in Luke 8:13 soil#2 believed. Do you have a different meaning for the word.

The same Greek word G4100 is used in
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—

Joh 3:15 that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

Joh 20:31 But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.

On and on, denial after denial. Is the issue whether Soil #2 believed? Nope, but this poster makes the false claim.

The issue is belief does not automatically result in salvation. Demons believe. But the love of God does not control them.

What does john 3:15 say? It says everyone who believes. But who decides whether to credit the belief as righteousness, and thus accept it as valid and set the person apart into Christ? It is God alone. Ditto for John 20:31, it is God who decides if our professed belief is belief in the truth.

 

[canadyjd]

This is the context we need to look at

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Here is a list of what I see as critical words found in Heb 6:4-6

been enlightened G5461

illuminate, make one see or understand (Eph_3:9 WSD

to enlighten spiritually, Joh_1:9; Eph_1:18; Eph_3:9; Heb_6:4; Heb_10:32 Mounce


have tasted G1089 of the heavenly gift

Metaphorically, to experience, prove, partake of. With the acc. (Heb_6:5) WSD

perception of, experience, Heb_6:4-5; 1Pe_2:3 Mounce


partakers G3353 of the Holy Spirit

As a noun, a partaker (Heb_3:1, Heb_3:14; Heb_6:4; Heb_12:8) WSD

a partaker, Heb_3:1; Heb_3:14; Heb_6:4; Heb_12:8; Mounce


have fallen G3895 away G3895

Used only in Heb_6:6, denoting a falling away, an abandonment. Some have suggested that this word and its noun paráptōma ([G3900], a lapse, error, wrongdoing) indicate errors of weakness, faults or accidents and do not represent deliberate, blameworthy or willful sin, contending that this would be expressed by parabaínō (G3845), to willfully transgress. However, the usus loquendi of the words (verb and noun) yield no such meaning but in every case signify deliberate acts of sin. WSD

{THE USUS LOQUENDI, is the usual mode of speaking. When applied to the Scriptures, it denotes the general scriptural use of words.}

to fall by the side of; met. to fall off or away from, make defection from, Heb_6:6. Mounce


impossible G102

In a neut. or pass. sense meaning impossible, not to be done (Mat_19:26; Mar_10:27; Luk_18:27; Heb_6:4, Heb_6:18; Heb_10:4; Heb_11:6). WSD

impotent, weak; impossible. Mounce


to renew G340

To renew. Occurs only in Heb_6:6, anakainízein eis metánoian (eis [G1619], unto; metánoian, the acc. of metánoia [G3341], repentance), meaning to have a new or qualitatively different kind of repentance which would see the person who had it through to the very end. WSD

to renovate, renew, Heb_6:6 Mounce


to repentance G3341

Repentance, change of mind from evil to good or from good to better (Mat_3:8, Mat_3:11; Mat_9:13 [TR]; Mar_2:17; Luk_3:8; Luk_5:32; Luk_15:7; Act_5:31; Act_20:21; Act_26:20; Rom_2:4; Heb_6:6; Heb_12:17; 2Pe_3:9) WSD

a change of mode of thought and feeling, repentance Mounce

@canadyjd it matters not whether you can find someone that believes it teaches you can lose salvation that also believes you can never get it back. It matters what the text shows us.

I have no problem reconciling eternal security with passages the show we can turn away from our faith. Since we can freely choose to trust in or reject God for our salvation that poses no problem for me.

Just say the words, if you are able, If they lose salvation they cannot get it back…

Twice lost, always lost!!!

Everything else you are doing is avoiding this truth, based on your belief Hebrews 6 teaches you can lose salvation.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

On and on, denial after denial. Is the issue whether Soil #2 believed? Nope, but this poster makes the false claim.

The issue is belief does not automatically result in salvation. Demons believe. But the love of God does not control them.

What does john 3:15 say? It says everyone who believes. But who decides whether to credit the belief as righteousness, and thus accept it as valid and set the person apart into Christ? It is God alone. Ditto for John 20:31, it is God who decides if our professed belief is belief in the truth.

Van you are wrong about soil #2. The issue is whether they believed or not.

The text is clear that they did so why do you not accept that truth?

The Holy Spirit says they believe so you think you know better, that sounds a bit arrogant to me.

Would you care to tell me what they fall away from if not belief? If they fell away from unbelief then that would mean they choose to be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

Just say the words, if you are able, If they lose salvation they cannot get it back…

Twice lost, always lost!!!

Everything else you are doing is avoiding this truth, based on your belief Hebrews 6 teaches you can lose salvation.

Peace to you

Lets try one more time

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age—
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Surely you can grasp that as it is right there in scripture. Or perhaps you would rather continue trusting those false teachers you seem to want to follow that deny the word of God.

I am not avoiding any truth as I have posted clear scripture as to what I believe. You on the other hand post verses that actually oppose your view and you still deny clear scripture.

So who is avoiding the truth @canadyjd?

 

[Van]

Van I see that again you want to make any comment just about you. It is sad to see someone so insecure.

I ask again how you come to the conclusion that soils # 2 & 3 were not saved other then it just being what you need to find.

The text is clear so why do you not believe it?

Endless twaddle, with absolutely no effort to address the issue of the false doctrine of loss of salvation under the New Covenant.

Once God puts an individual human spirit into Christ, they are kept for an inheritance in heaven.

When we are indwelt, are we indwelt unless we lose our salvation or forever. I believe scripture.

Does our human faith automatically compel God to save us? Jesus told those who had professed faith and worked in ministry, "I never knew you." Thus "faith" that God does not credit as righteousness, is not saving faith.

How about, if God causes a person to be born anew, can a human spirit somehow become "un-born anew?" The loss of salvation crowd has no answer, so they might change the subject.

Folks note that the quoted response above did not even attempt to address any of the verses that alluded to Once Saved, Always Saved.

Any explanation of 1 Peter 1:3-5? Nope John 14:16? Nope Folks who "believe" but do not give what is needed, are not saved. If God's love for you is not reflected in your love for others, you were never saved.

Automatic salvation upon professing faith is a destructive heresy. Romans 4! We must have a faith like Abraham's faith, i.e. a credited as righteousness faith. Romans 4:16

 

[Van]

If their belief was not credited for righteousness what did they fall away from?

From the opportunity for salvation through faith in the truth.

The concept that God must credit our faith in order for our faith to provide access to God's saving grace is not difficult to grasp.

Why does God credit the faith of those who believe upon God who raised Christ from the dead?

 

[Silverhair]

Endless twaddle, with absolutely no effort to address the issue of the false doctrine of loss of salvation under the New Covenant.

Once God puts an individual human spirit into Christ, they are kept for an inheritance in heaven.

When we are indwelt, are we indwelt unless we lose our salvation or forever. I believe scripture.

Does our human faith automatically compel God to save us? Jesus told those who had professed faith and worked in ministry, "I never knew you." Thus "faith" that God does not credit as righteousness, is not saving faith.

How about, if God causes a person to be born anew, can a human spirit somehow become "un-born anew?" The loss of salvation crowd has no answer, so they might change the subject.

Folks note that the quoted response above did not even attempt to address any of the verses that alluded to Once Saved, Always Saved.

Any explanation of 1 Peter 1:3-5? Nope John 14:16? Nope Folks who "believe" but do not give what is needed, are not saved. If God's love for you is not reflected in your love for others, you were never saved.

Automatic salvation upon professing faith is a destructive heresy. Romans 4! We must have a faith like Abraham's faith, i.e. a credited as righteousness faith. Romans 4:16

Van you continue to make illogical comments.

You have yet to address Luke 8:13-14 the two soils. All I get from you is your opinion. Your OSAS view is clouding your thinking. You are ignoring the words of God and adding your own words to the text.

Since when did you become the arbiter of another persons salvation?

If the Holy Spirit says a person believed then that is what it means whether you like it or not. Plus you have yet to tell me how someone can fall away from a position they have not held.

You can try to deflect all you want Van but until you can give a reasonable and logical answer to the person believing and then falling away as Luke 8:13 says then you are just beating at the air.

 

[Van]

Van you are wrong about soil #2. The issue is whether they believed or not.

The text is clear that they did so why do you not accept that truth?

The Holy Spirit says they believe so you think you know better, that sounds a bit arrogant to me.

Would you care to tell me what they fall away from if not belief? If they fell away from unbelief then that would mean they choose to be saved.

More stonewalling! The issue is not that Soil #2 believed. Let me repeat that. The issue is NOT that Soil #2 believed. It is whether the false doc tine of automatic salvation based on human profession of belief, automatically saves someone. That is the issue.

 

[Silverhair]

More stonewalling! The issue is not that Soil #2 believed. Let me repeat that. The issue is NOT that Soil #2 believed. It is whether the false doc tine of automatic salvation based on human profession of belief, automatically saves someone. That is the issue.

Van whether soil #2 believed is the issue.
Luk 8:13 The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

You are trying to include something that is not in the text.

believe G4100

in a moral or religious reference
1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

Whether you like it or not Van the text shows us that both soil # 2 & 3 believed.

If the Holy Spirit caused Luke to write that they had faith then they had faith.

You are the one that keeps coming up with your credited faith view. Why are you so arrogant as to think you can know who believes and who does not?

 

[Van]

Van whether soil #2 believed is the issue.
Luk 8:13 The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

You are trying to include something that is not in the text.

believe G4100

in a moral or religious reference
1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

Whether you like it or not Van the text shows us that both soil # 2 & 3 believed.

If the Holy Spirit caused Luke to write that they had faith then they had faith.

You are the one that keeps coming up with your credited faith view. Why are you so arrogant as to think you can know who believes and who does not?

Once again, I am claiming Soil #2 believed. Folks, what we have here is non-stop gibberish. Having lost based on scripture, we now get stonewalling.

But note the effort to claim automatic salvation which is NOT in the text. So I am charged with his offense.

Next I am charged with inventing Romans Chapter 4... I kid you not.

Once Saved, Always Saved. You can find that doctrine in the truth of being indwelt forever.

 

[Van]

The concept that God must credit our faith in order for our faith to provide access to God's saving grace is not difficult to grasp.

Why does God credit the faith of those who believe upon God who raised Christ from the dead?

Why were we indwelt forever.

Why do some claim being kept by the power of God sometimes fails.

Once given to Christ, how do we, with our human power, overcome the power of the Father and the Son to keep us in their Hand?

How do we become unborn anew.

Automatic salvation upon profession of faith is a destructive heresy. If God does not credit the person's faith as righteousness, God does not transfer the person spiritually into Christ. They are like the person who is "in the vine" but the vine is not in him.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

No one can bear fruit unless indwelt, so once again, a lost person can believe on Christ, but not be indwelt, but on the other hand, if we are "in Him" and He is in us, then we bear fruit.

Parable after parable teaches this simple truth, God decides whom He will transfer into Christ based on crediting or not, their faith in the truth as righteousness.

 

[Silverhair]

Once again, I am claiming Soil #2 believed. Folks, what we have here is non-stop gibberish. Having lost based on scripture, we now get stonewalling.

But note the effort to claim automatic salvation which is NOT in the text. So I am charged with his offense.

Next I am charged with inventing Romans Chapter 4... I kid you not.

Once Saved, Always Saved. You can find that doctrine in the truth of being indwelt forever.

Yes I know you are stonewalling Van. When you finally deal with the words in Luke 8:13-14 rather than ignoring them then perhaps you will see what the Holy Spirit said.

You hold to your OSAS view but have yet to provide any clear text that supports it.

Reading into the text what you want to find is not proof Van, it is just your opinion.

The condition of salvation is faith Van and that is what we find in Luke 8:13-14. So your bogus claim is disproven by the text itself.

You will continue to ignore the truth so I will let you wallow in your delusion.

 

[canadyjd]

Lets try one more time

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age—
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Surely you can grasp that as it is right there in scripture. Or perhaps you would rather continue trusting those false teachers you seem to want to follow that deny the word of God.

I am not avoiding any truth as I have posted clear scripture as to what I believe. You on the other hand post verses that actually oppose your view and you still deny clear scripture.

So who is avoiding the truth @canadyjd?

As Jesus said, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Just answer yes or no.

According to Hebrews 6, if a person loses their salvation, can they get it back?

Peace to you

 

[atpollard]

As Jesus said, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Just answer yes or no.

According to Hebrews 6, if a person loses their salvation, can they get it back?

Peace to you

No. According to Hebrews 6, it is “impossible”.
(I just wanted to prove that the question could be answered.)

This, of course, assumes that “enlightened” means “saved”, “fallen away” means “lost salvation” and “restored to repentance” means “get it back” … which are reasonable assumptions, but one should be specific when claiming “thus says Scripture”.