Do you find yourself....

[Bro K]

From RAdams reply: Ephesians 4:8, 11-15 - "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some,apostles; and some,prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I believe this passage is saying the the apostles, prophets, evangellist, pastors and teachers are the gifts given to the local churches; not the receivers of gifts.

 

[RAdam]

The passage said He gave gifts unto men. To some He gave apostles. Not to some churches, to some men. These are the gifts given to men for the purpose of perfecting the saints, the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ. Christ gave Paul a gift to be an apostle. He gave Timothy a gift to be a pastor/teacher.

 

[Bro K]

"Not to some churches"; correct, to the Church which is the body of Christ.

"To some He gave apostles": Are you saying the "some" is the same as gifts?
It is not the gifts that do the perfecting, work or edifying; its the apostles, prophets,evangelist, pastors and teachers. I believe that the "some" refers to local assemblies. All assemblies are different and have different needs.

 

[saturneptune]

jealous of other people's God given talents?

I have many faults in my life, but that is not one. Thoughts that run through my head when I hear a good choir, solo music, or a great sermon is "what a great talent the Lord has given that person to spread his message."

If there is a problem I have relating to others in church in regards to service or talents, it is being irked at the number of people who do nothing but sit in a pew and complain about the way others serve the Lord, such as visitation or driving the van. Yes, at times I have resented that attitude.

 

[Jon-Marc]

jealous of other people's God given talents?

Envious maybe but not jealous, but then maybe I'm just splitting hairs. I'm envious of others for a number of reasons, but I suppose God might call it coveting. However, I have never wanted what someone else has--just one like it.

 

[RAdam]

"Not to some churches"; correct, to the Church which is the body of Christ.

"To some He gave apostles": Are you saying the "some" is the same as gifts?
It is not the gifts that do the perfecting, work or edifying; its the apostles, prophets,evangelist, pastors and teachers. I believe that the "some" refers to local assemblies. All assemblies are different and have different needs.

He gave to some men the gift of apostle. To others He gave the gift of pastor/teacher. The bestowing of these gifts upon certain men was for the purpose of perfecting the saints, the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ. Without God sovereignly bestowing these gifts on men, they wouldn't have been able to do those things.

 

[Dr. Bob]

From RAdams reply: Ephesians 4:8, 11-15 - "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some,apostles; and some,prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I believe this passage is saying the the apostles, prophets, evangellist, pastors and teachers are the gifts given to the local churches; not the receivers of gifts.

Ah, then you are at loggerhead with Scripture you quoted!!

He "gave gifts unto MEN" v 8

He "gave some to be apostles, etc" v 11

The subject is MEN, PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS. He didn't give some CHURCHES to be an apostle (absured wording or concept - ever see an Apostle Church?); He gave some MEN to be apostles (to benefit the church)

Grammar is our friend.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Ah, then you are at loggerhead with Scripture you quoted!!

Received an "alert" and about choked laughing at misunderstanding of simple English. Have you not heard this expression??

For those not familiar with "being at loggerheads" with some statement or some issue, it is a common English term for a conflict - two views of which only one can be correct. When logs came end to end rather than side by side, they stopped the flow of rivers and other logs floating downstream, creating an impasse.

It has NOTHING to do with being a "blockhead" (different term) or having a "log in your eye" (from Mt 7:3-5) or having a "wooden brain". The Republicans are at loggerheads with Obama and his socialist policies, but they are not [publically] calling him a blockhead!!

Just stating this to help anyone reading this see there was no name-calling but a real issue of butting man-made false teaching with the actual Scripture.

God gave gifts to MEN (all Greek manuscripts agree and say 'anthropos'). For which the entire Church benefits, as each person fitly joins together to serve. You can say, abstractly/indirectly that gifts benefit the church. True. But the gifts given by God were said to be to "Men" and I'll not be at loggerheads with God.

 

[Bro K]

Webster's dictionary: loggerhead...1. "A blockhead" 2. "A large sea turtle....." \
God Bless and Goodbye.

 

[Bro K]

RAdam, I need some clarification; "He gave a 'gift' to an individual to be a pastor". Right? If so, there are several on the BB who are pastors and therefore must have received this 'gift'. Hopefully they will let us know what this 'gift' is. How did they receive it? What did the 'gift' consist of? Is the 'gift' identical to each individual? etc.

 

[RAdam]

I realize you don't believe men are given the gifts of being a pastor, but the bible there clearly says they do. Every God-called preacher was given that gift by God. He sovereignly gave that particular person that particular gift. He gave to some the gift of being a pastor/teacher. Not all men in the church have this gift bestowed on them. God gave certain men certain gifts. Just as He fitted Bezaleel to be able to make those instruments needed in the tabernacle service, and just as He fitted Aaron for the position of high priest, He gives the gift of a pastor to men today.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I don't think jealosy is the correct word, but there are times when I hear a song that I would love to share with others, I hate it that I can't.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I realize you don't believe men are given the gifts of being a pastor, but the bible there clearly says they do. Every God-called preacher was given that gift by God. He sovereignly gave that particular person that particular gift. He gave to some the gift of being a pastor/teacher. Not all men in the church have this gift bestowed on them. God gave certain men certain gifts. Just as He fitted Bezaleel to be able to make those instruments needed in the tabernacle service, and just as He fitted Aaron for the position of high priest, He gives the gift of a pastor to men today.

Amen...........

 

[Bro K]

I realize you don't believe men are given the gifts of being a pastor, but the bible there clearly says they do. Every God-called preacher was given that gift by God. He sovereignly gave that particular person that particular gift. He gave to some the gift of being a pastor/teacher. Not all men in the church have this gift bestowed on them. God gave certain men certain gifts. Just as He fitted Bezaleel to be able to make those instruments needed in the tabernacle service, and just as He fitted Aaron for the position of high priest, He gives the gift of a pastor to men today.

"I realize you don't believe men are given the gifts of being a pastor"
I believe that gifts are given to Pastors to help them in their ministry.

"Every God-called preacher was given that gift by God."
A preacher is one that preach. Preaching is proclaiming or heralding forth the Word of God. I believe every Christian has the responsibility to proclaim God's Word; we just do it in different ways. Therefore; have we all received that gift?

I'm still waiting of our Pastors for their response.

 

[Bro K]

RAdam. The more I read; more questions arise. I believe the root our different views may come from these three words: Vs11.."he gave some"

I see it this way:
he: Christ.
gave: gave what? Vs8 "gave gifts unto men".
some: Men...Referring back to the men in Vs8.

As I was looking at Vs 12 in 'The Interlinger Greek-English New Testament'; it states: "with a view to the perfecting of the saints......."
"with a view to" caught my attention.

Who has a view? (Men or Gifts) Since Vs 12 is a continuation of vs 11; "with" would tie it back to the apostles, prophets, etc. If I may paraphrase: He gave gifts unto men and unto some of them he gave apostles, prophets, etc for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for edifying of the body of Christ.
Teaching (by men)(not gifts) helps in the perfecting of the saints; work of the ministry is done by men (not gifts); edifying of the body of Christ is done by men (not gifts). The apostles, prophets, etc were given unto the men as gifts.

What think ye??

 

[RAdam]

RAdam. The more I read; more questions arise. I believe the root our different views may come from these three words: Vs11.."he gave some"

I see it this way:
he: Christ.
gave: gave what? Vs8 "gave gifts unto men".
some: Men...Referring back to the men in Vs8.

As I was looking at Vs 12 in 'The Interlinger Greek-English New Testament'; it states: "with a view to the perfecting of the saints......."
"with a view to" caught my attention.

Who has a view? (Men or Gifts) Since Vs 12 is a continuation of vs 11; "with" would tie it back to the apostles, prophets, etc. If I may paraphrase: He gave gifts unto men and unto some of them he gave apostles, prophets, etc for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for edifying of the body of Christ.
Teaching (by men)(not gifts) helps in the perfecting of the saints; work of the ministry is done by men (not gifts); edifying of the body of Christ is done by men (not gifts). The apostles, prophets, etc were given unto the men as gifts.

What think ye??

What think I? I think you are wresting the scriptures. The plain language is that he gave the gifts unto men. The gifts were the gifts of being an apostle, prophet, evangelist, or pastor/teacher. Those gifts were given to some men. They were given to those particular men for the work of the ministry, for the perfecting of the saints, for the edifying of the body of Christ. In other words, God gave Paul the gift of being an apostle for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. God gave Timothy the gift of pastor/teacher for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. The language is simple to understand. If we quit trying to read into scripture what we want scripture to say and instead simply read scripture in order to find out what it says, we will see the simple language of this passage shine through.

 

[Bro K]

Came across this quote on another Thread: "God gave the church elders to be "pastor/teachers" (single gift to the local assembly) to shepherd and teach".

Very, very interesting...considering the source.

 

[righteousdude2]

There Are Times I Sin....

... I doubt if anyone has not crossed this line once in their life. I have envied the gifts of others, but, I have also recognized the envy and gotten rid of it ASAP.

The Lord has richly blessed each of us, and the truth is, we have nothing to envy in others.

Whether we have a small ministry, or, a world wide ministry, we need to be thankful for what we have been granted to bless others and God with.

The overall puzzle needs both small and large and everything in between to be successful at reaching the lost!


Thanks for reminding all of us to be more humble than we often are!!!:thumbs:

Pastor Paul