I gave two examples from the NT.
All I'm saying is that a strictly literal interpretation is not always right. If it were, then we should all be receiving Mass. After all, "This is My body" (Mark 14:22 etc.) :smilewinkgrin:
Steve
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Do you have a Bible verse[s] to back up your hermeneutic?
- Thread starter Greektim
- Start date
All I'm saying is that a strictly literal interpretation is not always right. If it were, then we should all be receiving Mass. After all, "This is My body" (Mark 14:22 etc.) :smilewinkgrin:
Steve
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations,(Gentiles)
Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen,(Gentiles)
By the way this also was the house of Israel.
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel (house of Israel) committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; Israel not Judah
Hosea 8:8 Israel (house of Israel not Judah) is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away,
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. Verse 24 For I will take you from among the heathen,(Gentiles)
Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Notice not all at this time for it is the period of the feast of firstfruits, the firstfruits of the Spirit from the house of Judah and the house of Israel. The in-gathering comes later. Israel in part is blinded
Hosea 1:9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God]. (the house of Israel)
Verse 10 and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God. Paul quotes this in Romans 9 however even there it isn't all of them for some are still blind as Paul was himself until Jesus called him.
Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
The verses above that last are some of the ones written agreeing with verse 14. Or, words of the prophets, ends one thought and the next thought begins, As it is written after this, then the writer of Luke tells what happens when God is through taking out a people for his name.
After this. After what? After the taking out a people for his name. Amos 9:11
The return of Christ to rebuild the throne of David and our prayers will be answered, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The gospel of the kingdom of God brought forth by inheritance through resurrection and or instant spiritual change from corruption to in-corruption
from mortal to immortal.
Then Satan will be bound and the residue of man can seek the Lord and them on whose his name is called.
Hermeneutic?
Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen,(Gentiles)
By the way this also was the house of Israel.
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel (house of Israel) committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; Israel not Judah
Hosea 8:8 Israel (house of Israel not Judah) is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away,
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. Verse 24 For I will take you from among the heathen,(Gentiles)
Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Notice not all at this time for it is the period of the feast of firstfruits, the firstfruits of the Spirit from the house of Judah and the house of Israel. The in-gathering comes later. Israel in part is blinded
Hosea 1:9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God]. (the house of Israel)
Verse 10 and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God. Paul quotes this in Romans 9 however even there it isn't all of them for some are still blind as Paul was himself until Jesus called him.
Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
The verses above that last are some of the ones written agreeing with verse 14. Or, words of the prophets, ends one thought and the next thought begins, As it is written after this, then the writer of Luke tells what happens when God is through taking out a people for his name.
After this. After what? After the taking out a people for his name. Amos 9:11
The return of Christ to rebuild the throne of David and our prayers will be answered, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The gospel of the kingdom of God brought forth by inheritance through resurrection and or instant spiritual change from corruption to in-corruption
from mortal to immortal.
Then Satan will be bound and the residue of man can seek the Lord and them on whose his name is called.
Hermeneutic?
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Not sure what that was all about... but the acid test is Acts 15:16 quoting Amos 9:9. Basically, Amos 9:9ff. tell about the restoration of Israel. The early church says that the restoration of Israel has begun b/c the prophecy of the ingathering of the nations has begun. That is a figural understanding of the restoration of Israel then. Israel is restored in Jesus and continues restoration in the church.
Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets;
From my previous post the words of the prophets agree that the house of Israel separate from the house of Judah were scattered among the heathen that is the Gentiles and were even considered to be Gentiles.
God by the words of the prophets said I, God am going to take one of a city, two of a family from among the house of Israel who were among the Gentiles, heathen, a people for his name sake and bring them to to Zion.
Is Zion the church?
All the peoples of the earth will have the opportunity to be blessed in the seed of Abraham the Christ but it will be according to the plan of God.
Amos 3:1-3 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family(The house of Judah and the house of Israel) which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
He scattered the house of Israel shortly after this was written. They are still scattered and have lost their way, they do nor even know who they are, they are mixed among the nations. A little over one hundred years later the house of Judah begin going into captivity and after the seventy years Babylon was a nation God brought many of them back to Judea and Jerusalem. They had to be there for Christ a Judean to be born in Bethlehem
and to come to his own the house of Judea. In 70 AD they were scattered again also. Christ is building his church from the Jews, house of Judah and from those he scattered among the Gentiles. These are they that have the firstfruits of the Spirit.
It is amazing to me that the quote unquote Church says the feasts of God were given to Israel and not to the Church and yet the Church will say the Passover Lamb died for them. There sins have been removed that is they are unleavened as in the feast of unleavened bread. That the Church even began on the day of firstfruits Pentecost but that the feasts were not given to the Church but to Israel.
As it is written after this, taking out the firstfruits for my name
I Jesus will return = the feast of trumpets
That might be a good time for the Church to be resurrected from the dead,
that is so the gates of Hades can't prevail over her.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
All that and you said nothing of Acts 15:16 or Amos 9:9ff. :BangHead:
[QUOTE="Percho]Christ is building his church from the Jews, house of Judah and from those he scattered among the Gentiles. These are they that have the firstfruits of the Spirit.[/QUOTE]
I'm intrigued by this, and a bit puzzled. Are you saying that all Christians are actually physically descended from the Jews in some way?? What about the Chinese Christians? Maybe I'm not understanding you.
Steve
Steve
I'm intrigued by this, and a bit puzzled. Are you saying that all Christians are actually physically descended from the Jews in some way?? What about the Chinese Christians? Maybe I'm not understanding you.
Are you saying that Christians should still be celebrating the Jewish feasts?
Steve
Steve
except that Jesus said that isreal would have the Kingdom restored to her, just was in the times and season His Father had set up..
Also, Peter spoke to jewish peoples saying that God WOULD have granted her the Kingdom to isreal through messiah, but their rejection of the King would delay it until time of 'all would be fulfilled"
So even the early Church kept and saw isreal as distinct form the Church!
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
Romans 9:15,16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,
God can call anyone anywhere in the whole world. That does not negate God's word in either the Old nor New Testament. Primarily in both God is dealing with the children of Israel, who he ordained to be divided into the house of Judah and the house of Israel. Jews applied to all is incorrect.
More than once it is stated in OT prophecies the scattering and regathering of these people is done so that the heathen will know that he is the God.
Nothing said or done in the NT negates this. God did not go to plan B because the "Jews" rejected the Christ.
I did not say you need to keep anything. I said I am amazed that the very things God gave to point to the very existence of "the Church", "the Church" says wasn't given for them yet if the fulfillment of these had not come to pass "the Church" would not be.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I am sure that Steve (Martin Marprelate) would agree, as I do, that the church was not God's "Plan B"
If you are saying that the sacrifices, tabernacle etc. in the Old Testament were types and shadows pointing towards the reality of Jesus Christ, then I agree.
stilllearning
Active Member
I agree.
It was stopped between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel.
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And the 7 year tribulation period, will be that 70th week.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Of course non-dispies would dispute your interpretation. But that's not my biggest problem here. You pontificate. You don't give any Scripture. I would at least expect a proof-text or two.
First where did Jesus say that the kindgom would be restored to her? He said it would be taken from them and given to a people bearing fruit (Matt. 21:43.
Second, I'm not sure what passage you are referring to b/c you cited nothing about Peter. So I will have to defer to you to provide support. Otherwise, Acts 15 supports the supposition that the early church (including Peter) considered the restoration of Israel to have begun since the ingathering of gentiles was taking place.
Third, your understanding of the word "kindgom" is a misnomer to its root meaning. Can it mean "kindgom" in the sense of a locale? Yes. But that is not its basic semantic meaning. At its root, it simply means "reign" or "rulership." So the Kingdom of God that was the major thrust of Jesus' message was a message of God restoring his rule on earth and in heaven. That is fully completed when sin and death is extinguished.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I would say you are partially correct in using this to help define your hermeneutic. But how is one supposed to understand what they are hearing in order to do? Don't want the cart before the horse.
One who comes to God with a heart of obedience and applying the word hears God and not what the hearer only listens to. How can one apply scripture when deceived? How can one begin to know the mysteries of the faith when deceived?
The difference is that those who are doers are also hearers with God in mind and hearers only are deluded.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Hearers only are not necessarily deluded but disobedient. That is at least what James says. To see deluded as part of the picture is something you are taking from other places in Scripture (2 Cor. 2:14 etc.).