Do You Know the Baptist Distinctives?

[Ben1445]

See post #93.

So I followed your directions and got multiple results. None of them say Van quoted this website on ____ date and time.
So it would still be helpful to know who you are quoting.
If your answer is AI generated, that is worse. It would be a conglomeration of several sites and lack any credibility.
In the age of AI, citing work is not optional if you want any credibility.

 

[Van]

So I followed your directions and got multiple results. None of them say Van quoted this website on ____ date and time.
So it would still be helpful to know who you are quoting.
If your answer is AI generated, that is worse. It would be a conglomeration of several sites and lack any credibility.
In the age of AI, citing work is not optional if you want any credibility.

Ask the poster of post #84 how he did it. You do see how you have posted two posts off topic, duped by the ploy bait.

 

[Ben1445]

Ask the poster of post #84 how he did it. You do see how you have posted two posts off topic, duped by the ploy bait.

You are following me It is not a ploy on my part. Is that your ploy?
It is a legitimate concern of mine. I don’t know if you are quoting three different sources via AI. I am just requesting the courtesy of not sending me on a wild goose chase. (Which I have only done once at your first suggestion. In the future I will roll my eyes and quote that you found it on the internet so it must be true. Then I probably won’t read what you found on the internet.)

 

[JonC]

You're leaving out all of the Doctrines of Grace throughout the Old Testament,
as well as in all of the New Testament Books, and as thoroughly covered by the Early church fathers,

and;

"STATEMENTS FROM RELIABLE HISTORIANS."

"Able historians, not Baptists, have made statements which confirm the assertions of Baptists that Baptist churches can trace their existence (as having existed at any given point throughout history) from the present back to Christ and the apostles.

"Hear the following:

"MOSHEIM (Lutheran): 'Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists" (Baptist Church Perpetuity, W.A. Jarrel, p. 311).

"ZWINGLI (Reformer): "The institution of Anabaptism is no novelty, but for thirteen hundred years past has caused great disturbance in the church, and has such a strength that the attempt to contend against it in this age appeared for a time futile" (Ibid., pp. 302-303).

"NEWTON (philosopher): "The modern Baptists formerly called Anabaptists are the only people that never symbolyzed with the papacy" (Ibid. p. 313).

"RIDPATH (Methodist): "I should not readily admit that there were Baptist churches as far back as A.D. 100, although without doubt there were Baptists then, as all Christians were then Baptists" (Ibid., p. 59).

"YPEIJ and DERMOUT (Dutch Reformed): "We have already seen that the Baptists--those who in former times were named Anabaptists, and in later times Mennonites--were originally Waldenses, the men who in the history of the church, in time so far back, have obtained a well-deserved renown. In consequence, the Baptists may be regarded as being from of old the only religious 'denomination' that have continued from the times of the Apostles, as a Christian society who have kept the evangelical faith pure through all the ages hitherto" (Ibid., p. 315).

"ALEXANDER CAMPBELL (Church of Christ): "... from the apostolic age, to the present time, the sentiments of Baptists, and the practice of baptism have had a continued chain of advocates, and public monuments of their existence in every century can be produced" (Macalla-Campbell Debate, pp. 378-379).

"CARDINAL HOSSIUS (Catholic): "If the truth of religion were to be judged of by the readiness and cheerfulness which a man of any sect shows in suffering, then the opinions and persuasions of no sect can be truer or surer than those of the Anabaptists; since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past that have been more grievously punished" (Concise History of the Baptists, Orchard, p. 364).

"Hossius also said, "The Anabaptists are a pernicious sect, of which kind the Waldensian brethren seem to have been. Nor is this heresy a modern thing -- for it existed in the time of Austin" (Baptist Church Perpetuity, Jarrel, p. 308).

"These quotations could be multiplied, but this is unnecessary.

"The Enemies of Baptists have made these Statements
which Verify the Antiquity of Baptists."

And that their teachings were Baptist Doctrine throughout the ages, since the time of the First Baptist, The Lord Jesus Christ.

I was specifically speaking about the "doctrines of grace" as Calvinists use it to make their "five points" sound better.

The first "doctrine of grace" proclaims that cmchildren are elected on behalf of their parents faith. I do not believe this is true.

 

[JonC]

For example, The Doctrines of Grace are shown in the Old Testament from this Google AI Overview;

"The Doctrines of Grace, often associated with Calvinism (TULIP), are indeed reflected in the Old Testament,
showcasing God's sovereign grace in salvation history long before the New Testament.

"While the explicit articulation of these doctrines may be more prominent in later theological systems,
the Old Testament reveals God's gracious actions and character, laying the foundation for these core theological concepts.

"Here's a breakdown of how the Old Testament demonstrates the Doctrines of Grace:

"1. Total Depravity/Radical Corruption: The Old Testament consistently portrays humanity's sinfulness and fallen nature,
highlighting their inability to save themselves. From the Fall in Genesis to the repeated cycles of rebellion and judgment in Israel's history,
the Old Testament reveals a pervasive human tendency toward sin and separation from God.

• Example:
  The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 demonstrates the consequences of sin and humanity's inherent inclination toward disobedience.
  
  
• Example:
  The repeated accounts of Israel's idolatry and unfaithfulness throughout the Old Testament
• underscore their inability to consistently obey God's law.

"2. Unconditional Election/Sovereign Choice:
The Old Testament shows God choosing specific individuals and nations for his purposes, often apart from any merit on their part.
This election is based solely on God's sovereign will and grace, not on any foreseen good works or qualities.

• Example:
  "God's choice of Abraham as the father of his chosen people, the Israelites, and his subsequent covenant with him, demonstrates God's sovereign election.
• Example:
  "God's selection of David, a young shepherd, to be king over Israel, despite his humble origins and his brothers' perceived qualifications, highlights God's sovereign choice.

"3. Definite Atonement/Particular Redemption: While the concept of a universal atonement is also present, the Old Testament foreshadows the idea that Christ's sacrifice would specifically secure the salvation of the elect. Sacrificial systems in the Old Testament point to the need for atonement for sin, and God's provision of atonement through the death of animals foreshadows the ultimate sacrifice of Christ for his chosen people.

• Example:
  "The Passover lamb, whose blood protected the Israelites from the angel of death, symbolizes the substitutionary sacrifice that would later be fulfilled by Christ.
• Example:
  "The scapegoat, which symbolically bore the sins of the people, points towards the future reality of Christ taking the sins of his people upon himself.

"4. "Irresistible Grace/Effectual Calling: The Old Testament reveals instances where God's grace powerfully and effectively calls individuals to himself, overcoming their resistance and bringing them into relationship with him.

• Example:
  "God's call to prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah, and their subsequent obedience, even in the face of opposition, demonstrates God's powerful work in their lives.
  
  
• Example:
  "The conversion of Saul to Paul, a fierce persecutor of Christians, to a devoted apostle, showcases God's irresistible grace.

"5. Perseverance of the Saints/Preservation: The Old Testament shows God's faithfulness in preserving his people, even when they falter and sin. This preservation is not based on their own merits but on God's unwavering covenant love and faithfulness.

• Example:
  "God's continued covenant with Israel despite their repeated rebellions demonstrates his faithfulness and preservation of his chosen people.
• Example:
  "God's promise to preserve a remnant of Israel through exile and restoration highlights his commitment to his people.

"Therefore, while the Old Testament may not explicitly use the language of "Doctrines of Grace" or "TULIP", it provides a rich tapestry of narratives and theological insights that form the foundation for these core Reformed doctrines."

A more accurate statement would be that Cal i it's use the Old Testament to try to support their philosophy.

 

[David Lamb]

I was specifically speaking about the "doctrines of grace" as Calvinists use it to make their "five points" sound better.

The first "doctrine of grace" proclaims that cmchildren are elected on behalf of their parents faith. I do not believe this is true.

Where does it say that? The first of the five points of Calvinism is about total depravity, and says nothing about who is and who is not elect. Like you, I do not believe that children are elected because of their parents' faith.

 

[JonC]

Where does it say that? The first of the five points of Calvinism is about total depravity, and says nothing about who is and who is not elect. Like you, I do not believe that children are elected because of their parents' faith.

Article 17 under the 1st "Doctrine of Grace" (the First Head of Doctrine...election....what was summarized as the "T" in TULIP).

"Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."

TULIP was just a superficial summary, an acronym thought up in the 20th century by Cleland Boyd McAfee and popularized by Loraine Boettner.

But the actual doctrine of the "T" is the first head of doctrine.

 

[David Lamb]

Article 17 under the 1st "Doctrine of Grace" (the First Head of Doctrine...election....what was summarized as the "T" in TULIP).

"Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."

Ah! All is clear now. Thanks. You are referring to the so-called "Canons of Dort", not the basic 5 points themselves. Thanks again.

 

[Van]

You are following me It is not a ploy on my part. Is that your ploy?
It is a legitimate concern of mine. I don’t know if you are quoting three different sources via AI. I am just requesting the courtesy of not sending me on a wild goose chase. (Which I have only done once at your first suggestion. In the future I will roll my eyes and quote that you found it on the internet so it must be true. Then I probably won’t read what you found on the internet.)

It is fine to be concerned, start your own thread and discuss the need to provide sources and links for all our citations. On the other hand, this thread's topic has to do with growing in our understanding of Baptist Distinctives. Do we embrace legalism, or do we embrace the Law of Liberty?

 

[Van]

Wild Goose Chase. When I copied and pasted the first sentence of either Baptist Distinctive cited, the High Point source was listed in the first 4 or 5 listings. Way easier than going to a library, obtaining a book, then searching for the citation in 1950's form.

OTOH, Baptists believe we are all part of the Priesthood of Believers, not needing to fellowship with God or His children according to intermediaries but having direct access. The "my way or the highway" folks are not really Baptists.