Do You Pray for the Lost?

Pastor Larry and all,

I'm just not willing to keep shooting back responses saying the same thing over and over. I get bored with myself...

But as I have spent a day or so wondering how any answer I was to give would make sense to you, the Lord directed me consistently to Isaiah 1

The opening and first part of the chapter are a strong rebuke to Israel for unfaithfulness to the Lord.

Verse 5 reads "Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion?"

Is this a rhetorical question? I don't think so. God goes on to recount the disasters that have overtaken Israel for her unfaithfulness. Then, in verse 10, we read, "Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!" referring to Israel.

So here they are unfaithful, and yet are being told to listen to law of the Lord. Was this simply for the purpose of condemning them, or were they able and expected to respond even in their sinful state?

First God, through Isaiah, tells them that their obedience to the law of sacrifices is meaningless to Him. "Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations -- I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me."

And he goes on a bit more.

But then there is something interesting: "Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow."

These people are obviously expressing their original sin nature and yet God is telling them to LEARN to do right. Is that impossible? If so, why say it?

And then, immediately after that are these famous verses:

"Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be shite as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword."
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

God is speaking not only to sinners, but to, as yet, unrepentant sinners. He is trying to sway their choice. "Talk to Me! Let's discuss this!" This to people the Calvinist says cannot respond. It seems that the Bible and God say differently. These people are expected to respond and God is indeed attempting to sway their choice without stopping it.

Yes, He knows what will happen, but so that no man will have any excuse, He does everything possible under heaven to sway men without denying them their freedom of choice.

Now, let me give you an example of why prayer is efficacious here. Just a homely example, but I think it will show something of what I would like to present.

I have a son who just turned 20 who has been in trouble with the law and spent several years in a juvenile institution, graduating from high school there last June. While he was there he went through some pretty low times. I visited him as often as I was allowed and we wrote to him often. When he was released, he had a choice of what he could do: come home and go to a junior college while we helped him get his feet on the ground, or rent a room himself and try to support himself while he want to a junior college in that area, or move up to be near a friend in another town, and maybe share an apartment with him and work and go to school. Of course I wanted him at home. I wanted the family healed and relationships to be built again. I knew that would be best for everyone involved. But he chose otherwise, and rented a room there. His sister, my seventeen year old daughter, asked me to tell him that she really loved him and wanted him home. They had been very close in years past. I asked her, "Do you really want me to tell him that? Are you ready for him to be here?" "Oh yes, Mom! I've missed him so much!"

And so, in effect, I answered her prayer and told her brother her message at my next visit.

And although he did not move home, it did start a renewal of the relationship between brother and sister which they had both missed.

I'm certainly fallible, and terribly grateful God is in charge of circumstances. I pray for my son so often! He has not chosen the best way, but his sister's intervention left a door open for him which might not have been left open otherwise.

But he's trying. And he's staying out of trouble. He's in college and working and it's tough, but maybe he just had to prove himself to himself. He's pretty far from God, but God can fix that! In the meantime, I'll open every prayer door I can; and then I will rest, knowing God loves him more than I do and will indeed answer my prayers to do everything possible for my son, perhaps because of my prayers derailing some consequence that could really hurt him.... I don't know. I know God will not deny my son his free choice, the same way I was not denied mine, but I also know that prayer by prayer a hedge is being built up around my son so that any way but the way to God is going to sting early and hard. Some people kick against the pricks forever. I am hoping desperately that he won't.

I hope that he will hear the Lord's call to "Come, let us reason together" and that his sins will indeed become as white as snow as he is born again. Maybe soon...

I pray because I want strong influences toward God to be built up in the lives of the unsaved that I love.

 

Amen Helen!
I am agreeing with you in prayer for your son.
I have a close friend who has a 21 year old son who has been to church all his life. He has known God. He is now addicted to Heroin. We are praying for him to return to his "first-love". God is able. It is going to take her son to "Hear His voice". God is willing and able to snatch him from the evil one. We are standing in the gap for him.
God Bless You,
Naomi

 

Helen, and Naomi...When you understand this scripture, you will be beginning to understand the Gospel:

"Can the Ethopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye do good who are accustomed to do evil."

connieman

 

connieman,
On the same token:
Can a sinner become a Christian? Jesus seemed to think the woman caught in the act of adultry could.
Jesus also thought that a prostitute could.
Jesus also thought that a thief, a murderer, a demon-possesed man could.
A ( Man after God's own heart ) David, commited alot of sins.
I could go on and on about people in the bible.
I am so thankful Jesus made a way for salvation. He did this for "all who would believe". I am so glad there are stories all through the bible of imperfect, sinful people, who could be redeemed!

When you understand this, my friend, you will understand the gospel message, and why it is so important to share our faith with others!
Naomi

"We must school and train ourselves to deal
personally with the unconverted. We must not
excuse ourselves, but force ourselves to the
irksome task until it becomes easy."
Charles Spurgeon

 

Naomi:
The only way for a leopard's spots to be taken off, or the Ethiopian's skin to be changed, is for the Creator to do it for them.
None of those people you mentioned willed themselves to be saved, or transformed themselves into Christians apart from the finished work of Christ and the will of God for them to be in His kingdom.
The woman caught in adultery washed her Savior's feet with her tears and dried them with her hair because she knew what He was going to do for her;
The prostitute washed his hair with perfume for the same reason;
The thief on the cross knew he was rightfully getting what was coming to him, and Jesus did not deserve to be where He was;
The demon-possessed man was freed by Jesus and did not free himself;
David cried "my sin is ever before me" and "against thee, thee alone, have I sinned" and cried out to be washed. Naman told him that God had already forgiven him, but did not exempt him from the timely consequences of his sin, though God called him "a man after mine own heart".
All is from God, of God, thru God, and by God, and man has absolutely no part at all in his redemption.
Even the faith we call "saving faith" is from God, and even repentance is God-given.

 

I understood quite well what you were saying. Your reiteration confirms it perfectly for me. Believe it or not, Nelson, I am well versed in this area and the arguments that you are presenting are not new. Just because someone answers you, does not mean they haven't understood you. There are occasions where misunderstanding takes place; this is not one of them.

The difference between fate and predestination is that one comes from a personal Being and the other does not. That is a significant difference no matter how you define "significant." The "inevitable necessity" has a foundation is the wisdom of the Creator God, rather than the random processes of an spontaneous universe. These "inevitable necessities" furthermore stem from and result in the glory of God. While we must admit that at times, our own finite minds cannot grasp exactly how glory is obtained, we cannot deny that such is the clear teaching of Scripture.

 

Yeah really ... I know what you mean.

I think there is still a problem of consistency. I understand your appeals to the "problem of choice." But I think it is effectively answered by teh sovereignty of God and the human will. Man's will is turned against God. That does not render him unresponsible. The commands go out of Scripture to repent and believe. Man does not respond because he does not want to. That is the crux of the difference. Someone can appeal to me to do something but if I have no desire to do it, the appeal is simply passed off. It does not make the appeal less legitimate. I received yesterday in the mail a book advertisement. I have no desire for the book. It is still a real offer. WIth God, everyone who wants to respond can respond.

But the problem with prayer still stands: On what basis do you ask God to intervene in the free human will? You insist that man must have free choice. Now you insinuate that it is perfectly legitimate for that choice to be influenced by God, but only after prayer. When we argue that God influences human choices, you cry foul but you pray for him to do the same thing.

God does not deny anyone their free choice.I think your analogy is a bit flawed because it assumes that God is nothing more than a parent hoping and trying to influence his child to make a good choice. I think God is greater than that (though I do not mean to imply you diminish God). However, I think it is an impugnment to his glory to suggest that all he can do is try to work around the edges to influence a choice.

 

I agree with you Pinoybaptist. What I was pointing out is the fact that a sinner can turn from his wicked ways and become a Blood-washed, Born-Again, Transformed, Radical Christian!
I felt what connieman was stating, was that we do not understand the gospel message, and "people" cannot change, as a leopard cannot "change" it's spots.
Did I misunderstand his point?
Naomi

 

Pastor Larry,
I appreciate your responses . I am still trying to understand different viewponts here. Please understand my motives are sincere when asking these questions. I am really trying to understand
Question 1. Why would God create the human race, and loving everyone He created, yet only saving a certain group of people. Giving no opportunity at all for the others to be saved? Would this be a fair Judgement?
2. I know that God knows the beginning to the ending of a persons life, thus, foreknowing who would believe and follow and who would not believe. Is this different then just setting some "special" ones aside?
3. I know that you believe we should witness to people, but what about some who say there is no purpose in it?
4. What is the difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism?

Thanks for your help
Naomi

 

Calvinism asserts that God chose, predestinated, justified, called, and glorified His people yet man has to hear about it on order for that to take effect. Hyer-Calvinists (which is what people would consider Primitive Baptists, me!) believe that salvation is ALL of God from beginning to ending, Christ settled the sin question at the cross with no other condition whatever.

 

Jesus, God in the form of man, willingly became a sacrifice for our sins, thus, fulfilling the new covenant thus, The Ultimate Sacrifice! No other way, not by works, not by just "hearing the gospel" not by any other name can one be saved. It is only through the Blood of Jesus. I agree with this 100%, no doubt whatsoever.
I believe that you must be a disciple of Jesus, the one true Jesus, who is (God in the flesh) I believe you must repent and be baptized, and you shall be saved. I believe if we choose to reject God's teachings, we can die in our sins. Yet, I believe that once we are saved God continually is transforming us, as we submit to His will.
I believe that it takes, on our part, believing and repenting (both action verbs) to be saved. Yet, it is He who even gives us the faith to even believe in Him. On the same token, He said, Choose this day whom ye shall serve, so it is also a choice.
Calvinism and Armenism? Why must we choose? Why must we have it all figured out? Can we just say, God is God and we are not? Everything is under His control! He is sovereign in all things. This seems to be a point of theological discrepancy. I do not think that if someone believes it is our choice to believe, is not truly saved. I also do not think if one chooses to believe there is no choice involved is not truly saved. I am not in a position to Judge. I am a lost sinner who was in need of a Redeemer and I came to a point in my life, 17 years ago, to believe and put my total trust in Jesus Christ. Did I choose Him? YES! Did He choose me? YES! Did I personally have anything to do with Jesus on the cross? YES! Because He died for MY sins. I could do nothing to redeem myself. I would never, ever, claim to "save myself". I would claim to make the choice to accept what He did on the cross.
Does this all make sense? I am just speaking from my heart. Please forgive me if it sounds confusing.
Naomi

 

Concerning praying for the lost, the only prayer ever said or needed to be said on behalf of sinners is that which Jesus prayed: "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." (John 17:1, 2) That is the only prayer the elect will ever need, and it was prayed roughly 2,000 years ago.

To answer the sister about "accepting" Christ, the question should not be whether or not we have accepted Christ but whether or not we have been accepted in Christ. The Bible makes it clear that men are saved, not according to their own will, but according to the good pleasure of the will of God: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph. 1:5) Paul writes in his epistle to the Romans: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Rom. 9:16) If I understood your post correctly, you stated that we must believe in order to be saved. The Bible states that we must be saved before we can believe: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24) Carefully read this verse, and you will see plainly that Jesus said that he who believes hath everlasing life and is passed from death unto life. If a man believes, he already has everlasting life and already is passed from death unto life.

 

I have already acknowledged the agreement.

Maybe, it is significant as per the Larry's opinion, but in reality, as I see it, it is only an apparent significance. That, with respect to predestination (under the Reformed tradition) and fate, the mode of operation and the results end with the occurrence of an event being fixed, inevitable and necessary waters down the significance.

Such is irrelevant if both the process of God and fate work in a similar manner leading to corresponding ends.

Besides, it takes more wisdom to engage in open events, as opposed to fixed events.

How God can receive glory by fixing everyone’s actions and destinies, I admit, is unknown by me. However, I do not think He does.

If one believes in the absolute foreknowledge of God without tying it into man’s free will and each individual’s destiny, while denying an absolute unilateral divine process of salvation, though a mystery would still remain with respect to foreknowledge and man’s free actions, it would better maintain the distinction between God and fate as significant.

It should be kept in mind anyone may assert that his position "stem from and result in the glory of God," however, such does not validate the assertion.

I am of the opinion that God has not made things pertaining to faith and obedience beyond our ken.

And, again, with all due respect, the appeal to a finite mind does not validate a proposition.

[ May 31, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

No one is sayng that the Creator doesn't do it for them. The problem is that people consider a free choice that was not predetermined as "doing it themselves", but the Bible does not support this.

The reason it would not be a genuine offer in this case is because in your view, God is the one who determines that many won't want to respond, and these people are said to be "appointd to wrath". What good is an "offer" made to them? (except to have reason to further condemn, as some argue).

 

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Rom. 9:15, 16)

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom. 9:21)

The problem here is not John Calvin, Primitive Baptists, Pastor Larry, nor anyone else. The problem is men who cannot accept that God is sovereign and man is not; that we are the potter and He is the clay; that whatever He pleases, that He also does; that we were made for his pleasure. That is the problem.

 

The problem is verses constantly wrested from their context (to support the problematic assertion mentioned before).

 

Pastor Larry,

re: “The commands go out of Scripture to repent and believe.”

Are you suggesting that a person has the ability to simply CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

 

Nope. The natural does not seek God, he cannot please God, he is unable to do so. That does not change the fact that the commands are given to repent and believe.

 

The mode of operation is far different. One is the impersonal processes of a randam chance, the other is the divine sovereignty of a personal God. How you can say that is not significantly different is beyond me. If a flower grows in your yard, your wife thinks that is nice; if you buy a flower and plant it in your yard for your wife, she has a much different opinion of it because it has significance beyond chance. While this is a flawed analogy (as all are), it nevertheless illustrates the difference and its significance.

But they do not work in a similar manner and they do not end in corresponding ends. No one knows what the outcome of random chance would be but based on the laws of science, it would always be more disorder. We do know what the end of the ordination of God is because we see it everyday. In some cases, it is to let things degenerate, but in other cases it is the reverse the degeneration to bring new life. This is a vast difference.

In whose opinion? I seriously disagree with this. Wisdom in Job 28 is described as a search for man but possession of God. It is also described in terms of determination (as it is in other places).

Well said ... but when the Scripture clearly teaches that everything stems from and results in the glory of God, our only just response is to submit our minds to such teaching.

Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:4-6 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (cf. vv. 12, 14).

Indeed, the Scripture does teach that "all things" are about the glory of God.

I agree ... but you have made the statement previously that you don't understand how God gets glory from certain things and that was what I was addressing. We might not know how God gets glory from something but if he says he does, then we must accept it. Our understanding of these things does not in anyway negate our responsibility for faith and obedience.

 

I agree, and this is what I see as the primary difference between determination by God and fate. In fate, everything happens for no particular reason. There is no perfect plan, nor is there a purposeful end.

God, however, is not capricious. Everything He brings about in either an active or a permissive way, happens for a purpose. God has a reason for every choice He makes to either directly cause something to happen or more permissively allow it to happen.