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Do you raise YOUR Children this way?

saturneptune

New Member
Moderators,
If this thread does not convince you that Calvin-free will debates produce nothing but hate, I do not know what would. I really think they all, whatever the title of the thread that leads to this subject, needs to be put off in a distant corner.

Having raised children the best way I knew how, I find the analogy between children and this subject ridiculous.

Everyone is right. We are each certain we have the focus of Biblical truth. Therefore, "I will pray for you", no "I will pray for you." It sounds like a bunch of six year old kids. Its my Bible, no its mine. Nonsense.

We create all these man made divisions, and keep subdividing until only our denomination is saved, then only our local church, maybe only me is saved. Praise the Lord this thread was not the original members of the church in Acts. No doubt we would have 1 million denominations today instead of over 1000.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Well, why not explain if the "elect" is chosen before the foundation of the world, can anyone else be saved besides the ones chosen before the foundation of the world?

If they have to go through certain steps, they can't help themselves if they were chosen as the "elect" before the foundation of the world. Maybe some of you can write and say if you can refuse the Grace when it comes? When you get this faith, according to you God put it in you, when you get this repentance, God changed your heart so it couldn't do anything else but repent.
Does anyone deny this.
 
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I don't think Brother Bob is saying that people on hear are doing that. But there are some people on hear that believe if a person can commit adultery and not repent and go to heaven even thou they done this deed. Let me explain. Like if a person is commiting adultery and they get in there car and after and get in a wreak and die that they will go to heaven. But they confese that they are save and are doing these things. I thank what he is trieing to say is there are alot on hear that think they can do them things and go to heaven and say they are saved. I have seen it for myself on hear. I will tell you and everyone else if you do them things you are still under the law and ye shall be judge by the law. What sayeth the law Gal 5-19-21 I will give you the last part of verse 21 that they which DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. So how can someone disagree with this if it clearly says they cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I do not believe that GOD will MAKE you serve him. I do believe in a small still voice that talks to sinner men and weman. I do believe that it is his love and kindness that draws us. That is the reason he said chose this day whom you will serve. Harden not your heart. I think he can make all of us serve him. But I don't think that he will. He wants us to believe on whom he sent to. You believe by the heart. If you think that God makes you serve him then there is something wrong there. You as a Christain should have a desire to serve the Lord.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Bro. Lamb:
Just wondering - does anyone on this Board believe that? Has anyone stated it? Do you really think that Christians who hold the reformed doctrines belive a person can be saved without faith,(God put the faith in you?) without knowing they are saved,(No one said you wouldn't know) without hearing God's Word preached,(Do you believe, being you are the elect, God makes sure you do hear the word?) without turning to the Lord for salvation, without godly sorrow and repentance? (Now these I hope all Cals do believe, but I think you are saying, God will change your heart so you will repent?)I can't speak for others of course, but I certainly don't believe what you seem to suggest.

Please tell me if I have it wrong highlight in the red.

Can the elect refuse these things highlighted in red when they come?
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Brother Bob said:
Well, why not explain if the "elect" is chosen before the foundation of the world, can anyone else be saved besides the ones chosen before the foundation of the world?

It would take someone more eloquent than I to explain it properly. I would just say that if we believe in Christ, it is because we are the elect of God, though we didn't know it before we believed, neither did the Christian(s) who witnessed/preached to us.

Writing to the Christians at Ephesus, Paul said in Ephesians 1.3-9:

3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Brother Bob said:
Bro. Lamb:
Just wondering - does anyone on this Board believe that? Has anyone stated it? Do you really think that Christians who hold the reformed doctrines belive a person can be saved without faith,(God put the faith in you?) without knowing they are saved,(No one said you wouldn't know) without hearing God's Word preached, (Do you believe, being you are the elect, God makes sure you do hear the word?) without turning to the Lord for salvation, without godly sorrow and repentance? (Now these I hope all Cals do believe, but I think you are saying, God will change your heart so you will repent?) I can't speak for others of course, but I certainly don't believe what you seem to suggest.

Please tell me if I have it wrong highlight in the red.

Can the elect refuse these things highlighted in red when they come?

(I hope I have re-highlighted correctly - when I pressed "Quote", the result did not include your quote of me, or your highlights)

My first response would be, "Why ever should they want to refuse them?"

In reply to your "red words":

God put the faith in you? God gave me faith, yes.

No one said you wouldn't know. I must have misunderstood your earlier post, where you wrote: "WoW! you are saved!!!!, in
an instant with no knowledge it was taking place."

Do you believe, being you are the elect, God makes sure you do hear the word? Yes, but only in hindsight. As a Christian, I can say,"God made sure that I heard His Word, for He causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." As an unsaved person, before my conversion, I had no way of knowing whether I was "elect of God" or not, and had no interest in knowing, either.

Now these I hope all Cals do believe, but I think you are saying, God will change your heart so you will repent? Without God changing my heart, I would have seen no need to repent, and certainly had no ability to do so. I was spiritually dead.
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
Dale-c said:
I was too late to get into this thread earlier before it was closed but I must say it was rather offensive!

I have at this time one question:
Is this how you would raise your OWN Children?

Well, isn't that the way government and the libs want citizens to raise our children ?
No spanking, no "go to bed without dinner"?
No "I'll determine if this boy is right for you, or if this girl is good for you" ?
No "don't you ever raise your voice at me again, young man (or woman)" ?

Heck, even tv commercials about cellphones have children talking back to their parents disrespectfully over the right to have a cellphone of their choice !

All "I trust you, darling, to do the right thing in Cancun, or Florida, during your spring break".

Sorry, couldn't resist it.
Apologies for sounding impertinent.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Perhaps if there is someone on the BB who does believe that sinners can be saved without faith, repentance and so on, they could write and say so.
In the infant salvation thread it was noted by Spurgeon that "elect"infants cannot have faith...and are saved regardless.

"Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days. You never heard its declaration of faith—it was not capable of such a thing—it was not baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ, not buried with him in baptism;it was not capable of giving that "answer of a good conscience towards God;" nevertheless, you may rest assured that it is well with the child, well in a higher and a better sense than it is well with yourselves; well without limitation, well without exception, well infinitely, "well" eternally.
 
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ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
webdog said:
In the infant salvation thread it was noted by Spurgeon that "elect"infants cannot have faith...and are saved regardless.

You assumed it, agreed that it was your opinion, but didn't prove it.

I think its irresponsible to quote only a section and try to use it to your own purpose.

THE SUBJECT of this morning's discourse will be "Infant Salvation." It may not possibly be interesting to all present, but I do not remember to have preached upon this subject to this congregation, and I am anxious moreover that the printed series should contain sermons upon the whole range of theology. I think there is no one point which ought to be left out in our ministry, even though it may only yield comfort to a class. Perhaps the larger proportion of this audience have at some time or other had to shed the briny tear over the child's little coffin;—it may be that through this subject consolation may be afforded to them. This good Shunammite was asked by Gehazi, whether it was well with herself. She was mourning over a lost chid, and yet she said, "It is well;" she felt that the trial would surely be blessed. "Is it well with thy husband?" He was old and stricken in years, and was ripening for death, yet she said, "Yes, it is well." Then came the question about her child, it was dead at home, and the enquiry would renew her griefs, "Is it well with the child?" Yet she said, "It is well," perhaps so answering because she had a faith that soon it should be restored to her, and that its temporary absence was well; or I think rather because she was persuaded that whatever might have become of its spirit, it was safe in the keeping of God, happy beneath the shadow of his wings. Therefore, not fearing that it was lost, having no suspicion whatever that it was cast away from the place of bliss—for that suspicion would have quite prevented her giving such answer—she said "Yes, the child is dead, but 'it is well.'"
Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days. You never heard its declaration of faith—it was not capable of such a thing—it was not baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ, not buried with him in baptism; it was not capable of giving that "answer of a good conscience towards God;" nevertheless, you may rest assured that it is well with the child, well in a higher and a better sense than it is well with yourselves; well without limitation, well without exception, well infinitely, "well" eternally. Perhaps you will say, "What reasons have we for believing that it is well with the child?" Before I enter upon that I would make one observation. It has been wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists, that we believe that some little children perish. Those who make the accusation know that their charge is false. I cannot even dare to hope, though I would wish to do so, that they ignorantly misrepresent us. They wickedly repeat what has been denied a thousand times, what they know is not true. In Calvin's advice to Omit, he interprets the second commandment "shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me," as referring to generations, and hence he seems to teach that infants who have had pious ancestors, no matter how remotely, dying as infants are saved. This would certainly take in the whole race. As for modern Calvinists, I know of no exception, but we all hope and believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect. Dr. Gill, who has been looked upon in late times as being a very standard of Calvinism, not to say of ultra-Calvinism, himself never hints for a moment the supposition that any infant has perished, but affirms of it that it is a dark and mysterious subject, but that it is his belief, and he thinks he has Scripture to warrant it, that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God, and so have entered into eternal rest. We have never taught the contrary, and when the charge is brought, I repudiate it and say, "You may have said so, we never did, and you know we never did. If you dare to repeat the slander again, let the lie stand in scarlet on your very cheek if you be capable of a blush." We have never dreamed of such a thing. With very few and rare exceptions, so rare that I never heard of them except from the lips of slanderers, we have never imagined that infants dying as infants have perished, but we have believed that they enter into the paradise of God.
First, then, this morning, I shall endeavor to explain the way in which we believed infants are saved; secondly, give reasons for do believing; and then, thirdly, seek to bring out a practical use of the subject.

That is the full introduction to the sermon. The sermon can be read in its entirety here http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm

To make the claim you are webbdog, you have to ignore everythign else Spurgeon taught in the sermon.

And webbdog, I am curious, do you believe as some asserted on that thread that faith is from man, and not a gift of God? Then, as you rightly say, we must have true saving faith in Christ to be saved, how does an infant child exercise their own inherent faith in Jesus? (if indeed that is your scheme, but I didn't take you for a calvinist).
 
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donnA

Active Member
Don't you just love the way non calvinists never get calvinism right, and don't want to either, they rather make up stuff. Must make them feel superior.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Bro. Lamb;
I have said before and will say again, you certainly deserve praise for being humble.

It would take someone more eloquent than I to explain it properly. I would just say that if we believe in Christ, it is because we are the elect of God, though we didn't know it before we believed, neither did the Christian(s) who witnessed/preached to us.

Writing to the Christians at Ephesus, Paul said in Ephesians 1.3-9:

3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself.


__________________

If I understand Calvinism; There are steps to Salvation. If that is so, is the first step:
1. Being chose by God from the foundation of the world as "elect"?

Yes or No?

The next step would be regeneration, which is "born again", is that right? When God changes your heart?

Yes or No

Any Calvinist can answer these questions if they want.
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
Don't you just love the way non calvinists never get calvinism right, and don't want to either, they rather make up stuff. Must make them feel superior.
Feel free to answer the questions Donna, then maybe we will know.

I never saw the first person object to this thread which is to create a heated discussion between C/A, until Saturneptune stated these type threads don't do anyone any good. The last few days I have sat silently by while thread after thread was started to "down" so called free willers. There comes a time you have to defend yourself.

Spurgeon also stated if he could only see the "E".
 
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ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
donnA said:
Don't you just love the way non calvinists never get calvinism right, and don't want to either, they rather make up stuff. Must make them feel superior.

I am sure there has to be people who disagree with Calvinism, are true Christians, and do not misrepresent Calivinistic theology. I haven't seen one yet though, but I haven't read everybody...
 

Brother Bob

New Member
[QUOTE]I am sure there has to be people who disagree with Calvinism, are true Christians, and do not misrepresent Calivinistic theology. I haven't seen one yet though, but I haven't read everybody[/QUOTE]

A statement like this is exactly why you are receiving the posts you are now. You Sir, have just said that JoJ, Web, Creech, Convicted1, Myself and many more are not Christians. These I know you have read. I could go and get all the rest, but what good would it do, you do not think they are Christians, according to your statement above. Which is against the BB rules. I have never stated that any of you are not Christians and will not do so. You are the one who started the song against so called free willers, knowing it would draw "heat" as you so well like to use.
You all should be ashamed of yourselves for your threads are set up to call so call free willers non Christians, lost and going to hell. Well Sir, I been at this a long time and my Lord and Saviour is Jesus Christ, whether you believe it or not. Shame on you.
 
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ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Brother Bob said:
[QUOTE]I am sure there has to be people who disagree with Calvinism, are true Christians, and do not misrepresent Calivinistic theology. I haven't seen one yet though, but I haven't read everybody[/QUOTE]

A statement like this is exactly why you are receiving the posts you are now. You Sir, have just said that JoJ, Web, Creech, Convicted1, Myself and many more are not Christians. These I know you have read. I could go and get all the rest, but what good would it do, you do not think they are Christians, according to your statement above. Which is against the BB rules. I have never stated that any of you are not Christians and will not do so. You are the one who started the song against so called free willers, knowing it would draw "heat" as you so well like to use.
You all should be ashamed of yourselves for your threads are set up to call so call free willers non Christians. Well Sir, I been at this a long time and my Lord and Saviour is Jesus Christ, whether you believe it or not. Shame on you.

You have misunderstood me brother Bob, and as a result, this is a false accuastion, which I don't think you wish to do. A simple "I am sorry, I misunderstood you" will suffice to clear me of this calumny.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
I am sure there has to be people who disagree with Calvinism, are true Christians, and do not misrepresent Calivinistic theology. I haven't seen one yet though, but I haven't read everybody
What part is misunderstood, you tell me.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Brother Bob said:
What part is misunderstood, you tell me.

Certainly. And re-reading my sentence I can see how you came to your conclusion. It was poorly worded.

What I meant is that there are true Christians, who disagree with some or all the 5-points of Calvinism, who have accurately represented Calvinist theology. I have not read any of their arguments/books/treatise, but I am sure there are some.

So, I am not saying all who disagree with Calvinism are unsaved. I have never believed such a thing. I hope that clears it up.
 
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