Do you REALLY understand 1 John 2:2?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(see v. 8)? And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. No? What, then, does he mean
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That answer was perfect - direct "and obvious". An excellent response! And one that got "nothing" in reply.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now look at what John wrote in John 11:51-52, And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here again Iluvlight wins the point.

The text is not "exhaustive" in the scope of work done by Christ - rather it is inclusive showing that Christ's work INCLUDED believers - "the elect".

As Paul says in 1Tim 4

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare that to what John is saying in 1 John 2:2 (remember the same man wrote both of them and will use the same type of language to describe the same thing) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent!

IT is clearly and obviously stated - in perfect agreement with 1Tim 4:10 and with 1Tim 2 telling us that God desires that all mankind be saved.

For Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT FOR OUR SINS only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD!

John tells us in John chapter 1 that Christ MADE the world and that COMING INTO that WORLD He is the LIGHT that enlightens EVERY one of mankind.

We may then choose to accept or reject.

Good points all.

Obvious - and hard to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here is a wonderful revisionist "edit" being inserted in true eisegetic fashion into the text.

So let's "test" it IN the text and "see" how well such revisionism works.

(I already exposed the obvious flaw in the proposal given above a few years ago - but TC was kind enough to bring it up again - so here is the solution "again").

Already the text is so compromised by using the redefinition for the person of the 2nd part to mean - elect JEWS ONLY -- as Calvinism "needs it". IT makes general salvation principles (those that apply to both Gentile and Jewish Christians) needlessly restricted to "elect Jews only" - simply because "Calvinism needs it" - such that only "Elect Jews" have an ADVOCATE when ANYONE sins.

The universal salvation principle that applies to both Gentile and Jewish Christians alike - is restricted to "elect Jews Only" when the redefintion for "We/Us/Our" is allowed to be "redefined" in the way that Calvinism "needs" it.

The redefinition required by the model of Calvinsm in 1John is unworkable since it takes unniversal concepts of salvation and deliberately restricts it "to elect Jews only". As if John had started his book with -- "Now to the elect Jews scattered throughout the world -- I write.."

The attempt to redefine "WE/US/OUR" such that it refers to "elect Jews only" and "WORLD" refers to "ELECT JEWS and GENTILES ONLY" in 1John 2 - is problematic, and is not demanded by the wording in the text but is simply "needed" in Calvinism to support its model.

Of course in the 5 point Calvinist model - it is not I that have chosen to highlight these points - but God has sovereignly caused me to do it - in any case, redefining the person of the 2nd part to mean "elect Jews only" in the book of 1 John causes more problems than it solved.

</font>[/QUOTE]Case closed!

 

</font>[/QUOTE]I guess it depends on when they choose to take a cheap shot and when they don't.

Free will! Hmm even Calvinists use it.

 

Because Jesus Atoned for the sin of the world, He is the only one who can be our advocate through our faith in him. It is our faith in Him that puts us in HIS sheepfold, that makes us one of his sheep! As believers, we hear his voice, and He know us. And yes, it was established to be thus from the foundation of the world. However, never lose sight of the truth we are saved through FAITH ALONE! There is nothing else that we can do to effect or affect our salvation!

 

Hey Cassidy, after all that I have read here. I am still wondering if you really know what 1 John 2:2 teaches? Dr Dabney at least said that "the canded mind will admit", that the express phrase 'whole world' cannor be restrained to the world of elect as including other than Jews (Theology, p.525). Would you go along with Dabney's "candor"?

 

My point is that you excuse yourself for a typo on one post and then make fun of someone else with a misspelled word on another. Isn't that a bit silly?

Vicious condemnation? Where? I just quoted you twice. If the words sting... or stink, they're YOUR WORDS, Thomas.

 

Cassidy, care to deal with my last post above?

 

Cassidy says:

"Many anti-Calvinists look to 1 John 2:2 to disprove the Calvinist assertion that Christ atoned only for the elect. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"

I take it then Robert Dabney was "anti-Calvinistic"?

 

Oh I know what the graemlins mean. I just think your words speak a lot louder than the graemlins you use to protect yourself.


If there is someone whose opinion I value, and I don't understand their pontifications, I'll be sure to ask. Thanks for the advice.

 

Clean it up. Talk about 1 John 2:2 in here, or don't talk. People's spelling errors are not valid issues of discussion with respect to limited atonement. Nor is the use of graemlins. Keep it on topic and off people.

 

Did you get my last post on Dabney?

 

What Cassidy does not understand it that Jesus' atonement for was for sin, not for people. Sin is what brings the penalty of death. It is that penalty that was paid by Jesus!

Because the penalty was paid, man does not face death because of his sins. Therefore the doctrine of election has no leg to stand on because its one leg has been chopped off by Jesus Atonement FOR SIN!

 

In the story of Matt 18 - the man is fully forgiven ALL of his debt. He has no real ability to pay it - it is forgiven. But then when he fails to act in kind -- just as the one who forgave him acted towards him -- he then "pays" for all that was fully "forgiven".

Agreed?

 

Depends on where you're going with this.

 

Wes, you say: "man does not face death because of his sins."

care to explain what you mean by this?

Jesus Himself says, "And when He (the Holy Spirit) is come He will convict the world of sin...of sin, because they believe not on Me" (John 16:8,9). He also says, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: because if you believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24). And, the Apostle Paul likewise says: "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23)

For you to say that man does not face death because of his sins, is Biblically incorrect. Why else is man being punished in hell? For what other purpose did Jesus come to die on the cross, if it was not to pay the price of sin? You simply cannot seperate sin from those who commit them. To be correct, we should say that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15)