Do you REALLY understand 1 John 2:2?

I don't need to be convincing. Scripture has already shown us the truth. Unbelief is failure to obey God's command to believe.

 

quote: Bob said --
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In 1John 2 the "Atoning sacrifice" is unlimited in scope. Using your defintion above - all mankind is fully atoned for - and in that case Calvinism is right it is either universalism or you need to rework 1Johhn 2 to make it "limited in scope".
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That is what I am talking about.

In Lev 16 "nothing happens after atonement". This is where God defines the Bible concept of Atonement and where He shows that it consists of BOTH the "Atoning Sacrifice" AND the High Priestly work (that we see Christ starting in Heb 8-10).

In 1John 2:2 it is the "Atoning SAcrifice" portion of the Atonement that is "without limit".


"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole World"

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wes,

You told us to see John 3:16, which surprises me since it seems to contradict your position.

Take it wholly and in context, from 16 to the end of the chapter.

"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world thorugh him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son. This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

If, as you say, atonement was for everyone, whether they believe or not - you are contradicting Christ Himself when He says that those who do not believe are condemned already.

 

TexasSky,
There is no contradition.

You do not seem to know that Jesus' atonement was not for people, it was for sin! So there is no contradiction when Jesus says that those who fail to believe are condemned already. The Condemnation that Jesus speaks of is that which comes from LACK OF FAITH, not from sin, else John 3:18 would be discussing sin. But it is not, it is discussing belief. Those who believe are not condemned, but those who do not believe condemn themselves already.

Paul explains it this way

(parens and emphasis are mine)
You see, Jesus took all sin upon himself, died, and was buried. All sin in All times has been atoned 2000 years ago. Since then, no man is under the penalty of sin.

The Gospel message is this: "Jesus is God the Son, come in the flesh, the Christ; believe in him and be saved"! You will notice there is no mention of sin in the gospel, and that is because Jesus did not come to condemn, he came to set mankind free from that which prevented everlasting life...the penalty of sin which ALL mankind must pay under the Old Covenant because the wage for sin is death. Under the New Covenant, there is no penalty for sin, so man can have everlasting life by believing in God the son, who atoned for Sin, thus removing it's penalty from man. THAT'S GOOD NEWS!

When one does believe in Jesus, one becomes Christian. So from that point one must strive to live the Christian life, and that includes: confession, leading to forgiveness of sin; repentance from sin, leading to living righteously and Christlike; and retaining one's faith in the Christ through perseverance to the end of the natural life; then the judgment comes.

Judgment for Believers, is limited to deeds leading to rewards because they through faith pass from death into everlasting life.

Judgment for unbelievers is both that of deeds, all mankind are judged for what they did, and then because they LACK FAITH, they are "self condemned", they are cast into the lake of fire the second death.

So there is no contradiction of Jesus' words at all.

 

The verse says what it means, and it agrees with the rest of scripture, that peace will be brought to the whole world. It means that by way of the Cross He has made this possible. Today, as Paul informs, God is now reconciling the world unto himself and the final result will be peace on this earth. ituttut

 

Ituttut,
I wouldn't hold my breath on the basis of your declaration. Paul wrote those words 2000 years ago, and there have been some really global wars ever since. The only time that peace will reign on earth is when Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom on earth.

Besides at the end of Jesus "millennial reign" there will once again be trouble and turbulence on this earth, brought about by the release of the evil one from the pit. This will bring this earth up to it's destruction by God, when He replaces this earth which "passes away", with a New earth with it's Magnificent Holy City, the New Jerusalem in which God lives among men.

 

Thanks for the reply Wes. I agree with your above statements, but I ended with the final result of peace coming to this earth. The reference of Paul that I used is for this dispensation only that God is now reconciling. This will not happen in the dispensation of the great tribulation as this is the time of God’s wrath against his nation Israel, the nation’s and the world.

The New Jerusalem is a whole new beginning of the heavens and the earth, and has nothing to do with the “final result of peace on this earth”. ituttut

 

Ituttut,

Agree!

 

Wes,

The word atonement is defined as:
1. Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
2. The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

Given that fact, how can you say that atonement is not about people?

 

It's a matter of perspective.

John the baptist uttered the words "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" He could just as easily have said, "Behold the Lamb of God who reconciles us to God." The focus is on Sin!

Sin is the single element that prevents man from having everlasting life, because with its penalty of death, no man could have everlasting life but instead would face the second death.

The Voluntary death of God the Son, in our stead, eliminated the Penalty for SIN, so that man can have everlasting life because the death penalty has been paid, ONCE for ALL.

By a declaration of God Sin brought death.
By an ACT of God the death penalty is removed from All mankind so that through faith man can have everlasting life (salvation).

NO, that does not give man license to sin! Because sin is still just as revolting to God as it was to begin with. But with the penalty removed, man need not die the second death by having faith in God, especially God the son.

That is why only those who lack faith get cast into the lake of fire.

 

More specifically "Atonement is DEFINED" by God Himself in His OWN teaching on the "Day of Atonement".

There we see that it must include "The Atoning Sacrifice" AND it must include the High Priestly Ministry of Christ AND "Atonement is made for the PEOPLE".

It is very much specific to each individual.

Once completed - there is nothing else "left" to be done.

But if you "Truncate atonement" at the point of the "Atoning Sacrifice" - then there is a LOT of ministry and of individual application at the judgment seat of Christ that remains to be done.

 

Why would God continue that which he found to be unpleasing to himself?

Why would God equate his son's atonement for sin with that performed by the priesthood, especially after the priesthood corrupted it so that Jesus had to expell the money changers from the temple?

What you are saying is that the High Priest is the "Atoning Sacrifice". What is the predecessor for that?

 

Christ is the Lamb of Passover, He is also our High Priest. He is therefore the Lord's goat in Lev 16 "The Day of Atonement" and also the High Priest who "offers HIS OWN BLOOD" instead of animal blood. The entire service was about Christ our substitute, our sacrifice, our High Priest, our Judge, our Savior.

The idea that "God did not know what Atonement really was" when He gave us the Lev 16 model for Atonement "in" the Day of Atonement service -- has never been proven.

Rather Lev 16 is God's difinitive statement on the subject. And SHOWS the Work Christ did on the Cross AS WELL as what He is doing now for us as our High Priest in heaven.

In Christ,

Bob