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- Thread starter thessalonian
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thessalonian
New Member
Mike,
It amazes me how every one of these threads seems to end up "you catholics are a bunch of brain dead zombies while us Protestants are thinking Christians. Makes them feel quite Fruedian I am sure.
It amazes me how every one of these threads seems to end up "you catholics are a bunch of brain dead zombies while us Protestants are thinking Christians. Makes them feel quite Fruedian I am sure.
I'm just afraid they'll find out about the Jesuit zombie brain implants we Catholics get at our baptism! Let's all be sure we keep it a secret, OK?!
BTW, was it you who wrote in a thread a little while back about the freedom we Catholics have of exploring truth? That is so, well, true! Our separated brethren can never stop struggling to discern truth from falsehood with their fallible minds, while we Catholics can explore the riches of the truth with complete assurance that we will not be led down any dead ends, or into any bogs, or off any cliffs. That's the freedom a loving Father gives His children!
If you always believe the words literally then you would believe that God is a flying chicken too. He has wings, and hand and feet too.
Perhaps you know that so called body and blood of Jesus after it has been blessed has been tested and found to be no different.
So if it has changed after the priest does his thing the results don't show that.
John Gilmore
New Member
John, this sounds completely wrong to me.
Could you please direct me to some reference material that will explain this for me?
Isn't it a Lutheran term?
Isn't it the historical majority view of those who identify themselves as Lutheran? </font>[/QUOTE]As described in my above posts, this is the view of all Lutherans. See link to ( the Lutheran Confessions.)
Consubstantiation is a "view, falsely charged to Lutheranism, that bread and body form 1 substance (a “3d substance”) in Communion (similarly wine and blood) or that body and blood are present, like bread and wine, in a natural manner"(Christian Cyclopedia).
Lutheranism differs from transubstantiation and consubstantiation in that we believe in a real presence as oppose to a local presence. We reject notions that the body replaces the bread, that the body and the bread combine, or that the body and bread are side-by-side.
Lutheranism differs from Calvinism in that we believe that Christ is present according to His human nature as well as His divine nature. Just as in Christ the human and divine natures are inseparably united, so in the Holy Supper the bread and the natural body of Christ are united in a sacramental union.
If you always believe the words literally then you would believe that God is a flying chicken too. He has wings, and hand and feet too.
Perhaps you know that so called body and blood of Jesus after it has been blessed has been tested and found to be no different.
So if it has changed after the priest does his thing the results don't show that. </font>[/QUOTE]I'd love to read more about these tests that can detect God! Would they have worked on Jesus, c. 33AD?
And who ever said that Catholics believe everything in the bible is literal? Do Protestants believe everything in the bible is figurative?
thessalonian
New Member
"If you always believe the words literally then you would believe that God is a flying chicken too. He has wings, and hand and feet too. "
God never said "this chicken is me". He never said "this vine is me" he never said "these branches are me". He did say "This is my body". He did say "unless you EAT THE FLESH of the son of man and DRINK HIS BLOOD" you shall not have life within you" emphatically 4 times. He could have said it 100 and you would still not believe like the disciples in v. 66. He said I am the vine.
He did say "I am the bread (of life)" so metaphorically he is bread for us. He also said the bread is me. This is not a metaphor and is language not used for any other metaphor.
"Perhaps you know that so called body and blood of Jesus after it has been blessed has been tested and found to be no different. "
Perhaps you know that I am completely unable to detect through scientific means the prescence of God anywhere, though the Bible says he is omnipresent and I believe it. Perhaps you know that I do not detect the presence of God (the Holy Spirit) in you. Perhaps Noone by scientific means could have detected God by sceintific means in the body of the man Jesus Christ so he wasn't God by your logic, but only a man. Do you think scientific means could have detected God in Joshua 7 in the Ark of the Covenant.
"Joshua, together with the elders of Isreal, rent his garments and lay prostrate before the ark of the Lord until evening;...."
Was God present in that Ark. I sure hope so because they bowed and prayed before it and if he was not present in it then he rewarded them for idolatry with the sacking of Jerico. My guess is science would have only found some gold and achadia wood.
"So if it has changed after the priest does his thing the results don't show that. "
God said it and I tend to think he's credible.
God never said "this chicken is me". He never said "this vine is me" he never said "these branches are me". He did say "This is my body". He did say "unless you EAT THE FLESH of the son of man and DRINK HIS BLOOD" you shall not have life within you" emphatically 4 times. He could have said it 100 and you would still not believe like the disciples in v. 66. He said I am the vine.
He did say "I am the bread (of life)" so metaphorically he is bread for us. He also said the bread is me. This is not a metaphor and is language not used for any other metaphor.
"Perhaps you know that so called body and blood of Jesus after it has been blessed has been tested and found to be no different. "
Perhaps you know that I am completely unable to detect through scientific means the prescence of God anywhere, though the Bible says he is omnipresent and I believe it. Perhaps you know that I do not detect the presence of God (the Holy Spirit) in you. Perhaps Noone by scientific means could have detected God by sceintific means in the body of the man Jesus Christ so he wasn't God by your logic, but only a man. Do you think scientific means could have detected God in Joshua 7 in the Ark of the Covenant.
"Joshua, together with the elders of Isreal, rent his garments and lay prostrate before the ark of the Lord until evening;...."
Was God present in that Ark. I sure hope so because they bowed and prayed before it and if he was not present in it then he rewarded them for idolatry with the sacking of Jerico. My guess is science would have only found some gold and achadia wood.
"So if it has changed after the priest does his thing the results don't show that. "
God said it and I tend to think he's credible.
So now you put God in a box (the Ark of The Covenant).Originally posted by thessalonian:
"If you always believe the words literally then you would believe that God is a flying chicken too. He has wings, and hand and feet too. "
God never said "this chicken is me". He never said "this vine is me" he never said "these branches are me". He did say "This is my body". He did say "unless you EAT THE FLESH of the son of man and DRINK HIS BLOOD" you shall not have life within you" emphatically 4 times. He could have said it 100 and you would still not believe like the disciples in v. 66. He said I am the vine.
He did say "I am the bread (of life)" so metaphorically he is bread for us. He also said the bread is me. This is not a metaphor and is language not used for any other metaphor.
"Perhaps you know that so called body and blood of Jesus after it has been blessed has been tested and found to be no different. "
Jesus said:
Perhaps you know that I am completely unable to detect through scientific means the prescence of God anywhere, though the Bible says he is omnipresent and I believe it. Perhaps you know that I do not detect the presence of God (the Holy Spirit) in you. Perhaps Noone by scientific means could have detected God by sceintific means in the body of the man Jesus Christ so he wasn't God by your logic, but only a man. Do you think scientific means could have detected God in Joshua 7 in the Ark of the Covenant.
"Joshua, together with the elders of Isreal, rent his garments and lay prostrate before the ark of the Lord until evening;...."
Was God present in that Ark. I sure hope so because they bowed and prayed before it and if he was not present in it then he rewarded them for idolatry with the sacking of Jerico. My guess is science would have only found some gold and achadia wood.
"So if it has changed after the priest does his thing the results don't show that. "
God said it and I tend to think he's credible.
I was told as a child in catechism that the elements actually become the body and blood of Jesus. How else would take that, other than literal? So if it is literally true then it ought to literally be made up of flesh and blood. When Jesus turned the water into wine it was literally true. The guests certainly knew it. It was obvious.
When Jesus said those things He was living. Nobody could have actually tasted His flesh. He arose.
Jesus said, ""I am the bread of life;"
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
"I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."
"I am the door of the sheep."
"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,"
"`I am the Son of God'"
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser."
That is an interesting argument that you have about picking one passage and calling it literal when so many others are not. All were said while Jesus was still alive.
So if you are willing to interpret that passage as literal are you also willing to interpret the following verse a literal as well?
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." John 6:54
According to your view, then it seems that you would be also saying that it is only Catholics who are saved and will see Jesus.
I can assure you that will not be the case because
Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
If the apostles can be fooled by Judas so can we. We can even be deceived ourselves. The question is not what religion we are, such as were the Pharisees or Sadducees. In fact the only people Jesus condemned were the religionists. The real question is: "Who's living for Jesus Christ because of our life?"
In 1 Cor. 13 it says we know in part and we see in a mirror dimly. But Matthew 28:19,20 declares that we are be to be reproducing ourselves in the lives of others teaching them to do all that God has commanded. If we are not helping others to do all that Jesus commanded then we are failing at our primary task.
But Christ did say, "I am the vine; you are the branches."
And God did say in Isaiah 41:10
10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
And in Psalm 91:4
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
I take the Bible literally, word for word. I also know what an anthropormorphism is, and am able to recognize them in Scripture and realize why God uses them.
Along with anthropormorphisms, the author of the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit Himself, saw fit to use some symbolism, some allegory, some similies, some metaphors. If you are unable to recognize these, perhaps a good course in English grammar and literature would be in order. Catholics really ought to stop making the disciples of Christ out to be cannibalistic, and study the words of Christ a bit more carefully.
DHK
When you can show where Christ said "my blood is sap indeed" and "the sap which I shall give for the life of the world is my blood" then we'll talk. Oh, and show some disciples leaving because they took His words literally, and Christ not clarifying Himself over the misunderstanding.
When you can show where Christ said "my blood is sap indeed" and "the sap which I shall give for the life of the world is my blood" then we'll talk. Oh, and show some disciples leaving because they took His words literally, and Christ not clarifying Himself over the misunderstanding.
Get a grip of yourself! Study the Word of God in its context.
DHK