Do you remember......

[Mark Osgatharp]

No one is born a Calvinite. Every time a man is born again it is because someone preached the gospel to him and he realized that the Lord was willing and able to save him.

Calvinites are made by philosophical persuasion. And it often, if not always, starts when a well seasoned Calvinite strokes their ego by telling them how intellectual they are.

Do any of you guys remember the first time you were hit on by a Calvinite? Though I was never converted, I do remember when one started in on me. Within 15 minutes after I met him he was telling me I had a "good mind."

Thank God I had been warned of such as was fully aware of what was going on. Unfortunately, a lot of young pups swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Helen]

I was blissfully unaware of Calvinism until I was in my forties. I was simply trusting God with my future, knowing I had asked him, twenty years before, to please take me if He still wanted me. I became aware of Calvinism as an extremely rude shock when I was working as the head interpreter for the deaf on the west coast for Sproul and the Ligonier ministries.

We were in the middle of a session and I had turned over the interpreting to a very skilled young man and was sitting back, resting and listening and, actually in awe of his abilities as an interpreter. Something was mentioned by the speaker of the moment about predestination and I stared at the interpreter to see if he was hearing what I thought I had heard. He had. I was stunned. Did anyone REALLY believe that only certain souls were chosen from before time to be saved and everyone else left to go to hell no matter what? I remember looking around, hoping to see shock on some of the faces. But everyone was simply paying attention.

I asked about it afterward. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. It was absolutely foreign to everything I knew the Bible said. I knew believers were predestined to a certain goal -- to be transformed to the image of Christ through the agency of the Holy Spirit -- but not that only certain people would be chosen by God for that destination. It made total mockery of evangelism! It meant a mother could love her child more than God loved the child, and that was absurd in the extreme.

After that session I resigned and spent the following two years in concentrated Bible study and reading. One of the first things I realized was that from the time of Adam and Eve, God seemed to restrict Himself (not out of necessity, but as a matter of HIS choice) to reacting to the choices people made most of the time. So often He would delineate the choices possible and the results of each choice and then allow people to choose, even though He knew what they would choose.

In other words, I found the Calvinist doctrines denied from Genesis on.

I will never forget that moment of shock when I first became aware of them, though.

And, Mark, judging from the characters exhibited by most of the Calvinists here on this board, I think you are right -- it is a total ego thing and has nothing to do with the real message of the Bible.

Wouldn't it be interesting, though, for someone to say something along the lines of "Yeah, I know Calvinism is true and I know I am NOT one of the chosen. I know I am going to hell and there is not a thing I can do about it."

Everyone who thinks it is true is quite convinced he is one of the chosen. Interesting. Sad, but interesting.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Though I was never converted, I do remember when one started in on me. Within 15 minutes after I met him he was telling me I had a "good mind."

Proof positive that Calvinists can't be right 100% of the time.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Helen:
Everyone who thinks it is true is quite convinced he is one of the chosen. Interesting. Sad, but interesting.

I don't know how it's sad when believers have assurance of salvation. Could you explain this position?

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Everyone who thinks it is true is quite convinced he is one of the chosen. Interesting. Sad, but interesting.

I don't know how it's sad when believers have assurance of salvation. Could you explain this position? </font>[/QUOTE]Try to keep the material in context, OK?

ITM, you are one of the people I was thinking of when I was thinking of the sarcasm and nastiness of some of the Calvinists posting here. You know, stuff about cheese with whine and your post a couple above and such...this is Christ in you, the hope of your salvation?

THAT is sad.

 

[whetstone]

I'd like to think my jabs are more witty than out and out low blows like we've seen from present company.

 

[Helen]

You are not witty.

In the meantime, I have been looking up some of the verses you claim support election from that long list of yours on your website. You have ripped things out of context and distorted meanings incredibly to make the claim that those verses support what you say they support. I don't know whether you are doing it out of ignorance or intentional deception, but I have an uncomfortable feeling it is one of the two.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Helen:

Everyone who thinks it is true is quite convinced he is one of the chosen. Interesting. Sad, but interesting.

Helen - as I say in the Calvinist future scenario -- Calvinism REQUIRES " a heartless disregard for the finally lost".

To see the contrast between Calvinism and Arminianism in vivid living color -- read this post and follow the two links for a one-post-read in each case...

To reference the Basic Calvinist future Scenario “posted” with details “ignored” by Calvinists ON a thread about God not loving the lost –

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/2.html#000015


To see the “perfect” Calvinist confirmation “in a nutshell” –

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />JohnP
The Lord has mercy on who He wants and to Hell with the rest for His glory and our deeper reverence.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1586/19.html#000275

Some (Calvinists) have argued that plugging our doctrine into the future scenario to see what we are really saying about God - is not valid since our doctrines may not always fare well in that exposed light of day. So we now plug that same set of conditions and variables that determined the Calvinist future scenario – into an Arminian Future Scenario. Using the same conditions simplifies the “contrast and compare” exercise between Calvinist principles and Arminian ones.

Lets try the Arminian view of the future - where you go to heaven as one of the "FEW" and find that your precious child was one of the "MANY" of Matt 7.

(Note: The obvious premise points.
1. There is a God,
2. there will be a day of judgment,
3. not everyone is going to heaven.
So we would then have the following scenario - that you might "expect" if the doctrines of Grace as seen in the Arminian teachings are true..).

When you go to the Lord and cry out "Oh my great God and Savior - couldn't you have done Something to spare my precious daughter from the fires of the 2nd death?"

By the doctrines of grace as taught in the Arminian model - ... God may well reply with the words that Arminianism so “expects to hear”

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

"Why YES my child I loved them with an infinite love as Their tender Heavenly Father JUST as I loved you. I suffered the torments of the second death suffering for EACH and every one of THEIR sins JUST as I did for each and every one of yours!

I drew them to my heart of infinite love JUST as I drew you. I sent WAVE after WAVE of invitation, heart wrenching plea after plea - BUT In all this I did not force myself on them - JUST as I did not force myself on YOU.

”YES I could have FORCED both YOU and your child” to accept my Grace - but instead I Sovereignly Chose to Draw you both to Me and to Give you BOTH the ABILITY to see the light, to CHOOSE life or to CHOOSE your own selfish will. Fully enabled to choose. No trick language, no marketing gimmicks!

So when YOU CHOSE against me - I CAME back with even stronger ties of love and compassion - ENABLING your choice of LIFE JUST as I did with your precious child. Even so when your child refused my Love and eternal salvation I came back also to THEM with wave after wave of mercy and conviction and “Drawing”.

In the end - you finally accepted repentance and salvation but your precious child - OUR precious child - MY precious child -- chose to stand firm on "NO".

My heart of infinite love is broken over that - but I also Sovereignly CHOOSE to enable my children to CHOOSE even if it is to reject my lavish gift of love that suffered fully in their behalf!

</font>[/QUOTE]Oh what wonderful Grace! What unbiased impartial Love! What sacrifice lavished upon both the saved AND the Lost!

Of course the Calvinist may say of the Arminian God that we see pictured here "OH how TERRIBLE! How AWFUL" that God would "ALLOW selfless concern for our lost children EVEN for a moment once we are in heaven" (as some have said)... or that "God would LOVE our lost children" (As others have said) -- But I know that "not many" will do so - even among Calvinists because the comparison is obvious - blatant and clear.

</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Helen:
Everyone who thinks it is true is quite convinced he is one of the chosen. Interesting. Sad, but interesting. [/qb]

I don't know how it's sad when believers have assurance of salvation. Could you explain this position? [/QUOTE]

Sproul is a 5 point Calvinist -

His acceptance of "Assurance" is conflicted because He also accepts the "Perseverance of the believer" in a way that "retro-deletes today's assurance" if one fails to "persevere 10 years from today" as does John MacArthur.

To be a 3 or 5 point Calvinist AND have assurance you have to "have assurance anyway" since you can not know that 10 years from today you will persevere and thus validate todays supposed assurance as "Real".

In the Arminian model today's assurance can always be REAL EVEN if you should fail to persevere 10 years from today.

(Of course that is also true in the 4 point Calvinist model - only they do it like Lloyd does - by denying the Bible doctrine on perseverance)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by Helen:
I was blissfully unaware of Calvinism until I was in my forties. I was simply trusting God with my future, knowing I had asked him, twenty years before, to please take me if He still wanted me. I became aware of Calvinism as an extremely rude shock when I was working as the head interpreter for the deaf on the west coast for Sproul and the Ligonier ministries.

I too was unaware of Calvinism and the doctrines of grace until even much later in life! I however, was so thrilled to hear of the beauty and purity of those doctrines that I prayed that God would protect me and show me HIs truth! I did a lengthy study of scripture which I could easily see validated those doctrines and then did a study of church history which even showed where the church had veered off the path, became liberal and assumed their own responsibility for salvation by making man and his will in charge of what God had instituted! I will never yield or give up the precious doctrines which showed me God's great sovereign right and rule in the affairs of men and never stop thanking HIm for every detail of my salvation! My belief, even my faith is a gift from HIm! Soli deo gloria!!
Blessings and prayers for truth to prevail!!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Calvinism is antithetical to Biblical theology.

Now if you just want to pick up on a quasi-theology you can do what Luther and Calvin did after falling off the Roman Catholic wagon drawn by the machinations of medieval thinkers. Luther was surprised that justification was by faith. After that you sure do not think they were going to wander too far from the Roman chair in the Vatican, do you?

If you are a Calvinist you are a Protestant who is shouting the praises of the religion of the Dark Ages, one that only has a few glimmerings of spiritual truth.

Dr. Sproul is a fraud who likes to plaster his face on his books so he can make a few coins of unlearned new converts to Christ. His judgment will hit him in the face at the 'Judgment Seat of Christ,' IF he is saved himself.

Helen, I understand your frustration with these ideas that diminish the blood of Christ by the pronouncements of Calvin.

The Apostle John seemed to believe that Jesus was the Savior of the world; and he is said to have received his revelation directly from Jesus [John 1:19.

Either Jesus came as the Light so '. . . that all men (persons) through Him might believe' or He did not. What saith the Scripture? [John 1:7].

 

[BobRyan]

Here is my question - COULD a non-Calvinist EVER become a Calvinist IF they FIRST read through the "Calvinist future scenario" as contrasted with the "Arminian future scenario" posted above?

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1617.html#000007

Could they read the "arbitrary selection" confession from JohnP in that quote as a Calvinist and NOT find plenty of warning for staying out of the error of Calvinism??

Is it even POSSIBLE??

Don't you have to "already be blinded by bias" to ignore the clear lesson so blatant in that comparison?? How then could an objective, neutral person ever read such a comparison and then "believe calvinism anyway"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Acumenical]

I grew up in a church where neither Calvinism or Arminianism was ever mentioned, although the preaching was definitely in the latter mode (now that I look back on it). I came to believe in election not from any Calvinist but from a long study of Scripture. It simply made the best sense when all the evidence was examined. I don't argue about it, because it ultimately doesn't matter what went on behind the scenes of our salvation. Also, I accept both divine sovereignty and human responsibility (the Bible teaches both). Since emotions tend to get heated when the subject of predestination arises, often to no useful purpose, I seldom pursue a topic that's been debated to death for centuries already. This will probably be my only visit to the C/A forum.

Although I don't know any of the people on this board yet, the Calvinists I've met in real life were usually congenial, thoughtful, and godly individuals. I have nothing bad to say about them. No doubt all of them are flawed, but no more so than anyone else. Believing that Calvinists are smug, heartless, and cold is an old stereotype that doesn't fit anyone I know. Shouldn't we be avoiding stereotypes rather than encouraging them?

 

[BobRyan]

If one is serious, sincere and open to the truth then the following contrast of the Calvinist future scenario to the SAME conditions in the Arminian future scenario can not simply be "ignored" in an effort to "believe Calvinism anyway".

So enjoy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To see the contrast between Calvinism and Arminianism in vivid living color -- read this


First To see the “perfect” Calvinist confirmation “in a nutshell” –

JohnP
The Lord has mercy on who He wants and to Hell with the rest for His glory and our deeper reverence.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1586/19.html#000275

Now to see that in living color --

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

JohnP
I see no reason to rejoice over the death of anyone but I glory to God it wasn't me.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1576/15.html#000217

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

So much for the Calvinist future scenario --

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast the Arminian future scenario dealing with the exact same issue is the 8th post on the previous page - page 1.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Acumenical,

You said, 'Believing that Calvinists are smug, heartless, and cold is an old stereotype that doesn't fit anyone I know.'

A lot of people who do not know Jesus are not smug, heartless, or cold, so who cares about private lives.

Our concern is that Calvinists blame the Lord God for all of their contrived attrocities about Him saving who He wants and damning who He desires to put in the Lake of Fire. These kinds of people have highjacked the God of the Bible who loves and calls people to salvation and encourages them to trust in Him for eternal life.

Augustine took his philosophy of God and overlaid it on the Word of God, and then claimed that his view was right. With the Roman Catholics, at that time, were forbidden to have a Bible, believed the lies of the priests in the Dark Ages while present day Calvinistic Protestants still march in the parade of Augustine with the ideas of a former age.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
...Calvinists blame the Lord God for all of their contrived attrocities about Him saving who He wants and damning who He desires to put in the Lake of Fire. These kinds of people have highjacked the God of the Bible...

Huh? Am I missing something here? We've hijacked God by saying God saves and damns who He wants? You've got a pretty screwy idea of the word 'hijacked.' What amazing power you have to say what God can and cannot do with His own.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Helen:

Wouldn't it be interesting, though, for someone to say something along the lines of "Yeah, I know Calvinism is true and I know I am NOT one of the chosen. I know I am going to hell and there is not a thing I can do about it."

Actually, I do know someone who said this. The glorious part is that if this individual and any other is part of the Redeemed of God, He will change their heart.

Also, the truth is that all men are at enmity against God in their carnal state; Without the supernatural movement of the Holy Spirit there is no removing that enmity.

Calvinism when truly believed and truly spoken will not lead into lasciviousness but humility. The reason for that is the truly blood bought child of God knows He alone is God and He alone is their savior. I would venture this is no greater an 'intellectual' ability than any other possesses in the Lord, including Arminians.

The truth is simple.

Mt 11:28 (KJV) Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Re 22:17 (KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I am satisfied with this. Neither of us came of our own will, but because we were athirst and neither of us caused our own thirst.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Helen]

Thirst is a condition, not something someone 'causes.' All of us thirst -- for love, for peace, for joy, for companionship. This is universal. It is what we do about this thirst that makes all the difference. We have a choice: to drink from the poison waters of the lie or the life-giving waters of the truth. The choice is real. Both are available to each of us.

God does not change a person's heart against that person's will. This is why the writer to the Hebrews BEGGED them not to harden their hearts as their ancestors did in the wilderness when they rebelled against God. This is why, in Isaiah 1:18, God Himself invites "Come, let us reason together..." Both of these are addressed to the unregenerate, as one can see from the context. Christ invites ALL to labor and are heavy-laden to come to Him for rest. What is that labor? To follow all sorts of directions and laws to find what they thirst for!

All religions of the world are founded on the fact that man is not right -- something needs fixing, or exalting, or redeeming, or changing -- whatever term is used. And all except one tell the person it must be done by himself and his own actions or meditations or gifts or whatever. The onus is on him. Only one -- Christianity -- offers the invitation from God to 'come'. He has taken care of everything. He will change you. You will be given a new heart, a new life, and the promise of eternity with Him.

The invitation is to all and the Bible says plainly He is not willing that one should perish. But He has given us our own wills so that, in following Christ, we might be able to say "Nevertheless, not my will but Thine be done." So while He is not willing that any should perish, and has, at His own expense, made the way for all to be reconciled to Him in fellowship and faith, He has allowed us our own wills to respond as we choose to Him.

This is the only possible way a being capable of loving could be created. For love is a decision, not an emotion, and a decision is worth nothing if it is programmed or forced into something. It is worth something only if there is equal opportunity to choose the other way.

We were created to love and be loved. That can only happen in and through Christ because of our sin natures. But He tore the curtain and opened the way for each and every one of us.

Which way we then walk, however, is up to us. To Him or away from Him. Accept or reject the gift. If the person is chosen before time to accept or reject, then the choice is not real but fake -- a lie in and of itself. There is no choice. Yet the Bible tells us to choose whom we will serve and Jesus mourns Jerusalem for they were not willing to come to Him. His will was for them, but theirs was against Him. And He allowed them their will, although, being God, He certainly did not have to.

It is the same with all of us. Most men, I think, cause God to mourn.