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Do You See Books as Normative or as Mainly Historical to us?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
We would see them as basically being "special cases", as being what the Lord intended for the last days
Still be discussed and debated here then, eh?
Some of the headings were. But what was told to the Christians regarding healing? Were they told to seek out an Apostle? No, they were not. And why did some congregations not experience healing? Was it for a lack of Apostles? Again, no.
The problem is you are making a declaration based on only select instances where healing was accomplished by an Apostle.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father."
"To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills"
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."
Redundancy is a constant on the BB.
The Apostolic gifts to do signs and wonders were just to that select group, as there were none gifted as such in church history after Apostolic Age, but that God can still heal and work miracles as H chooses is establish as valid, but not the norm for today
Apostles did perform signs and wonders.
Scripture tells us this.
Scripture also tells us that many of these gifts will be given to believers in general.
How can you believe that Apostles did miracles and reject passages that state believers will also be likewise gifted?
It seems that you are choosing which passages to believe and which ones to reason away.
To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
There does not appear to be an expiration date in that passage.
The Apostles received the signs and wonders gifts from the Holy Spirit, but none have received them since last one John passed away, for the Apostles have a special place in the Kingdom of God, as they alone were eyewitnesses to Lord Jesus and were grants those powers and inspired revelations to confirm the truth of Jesus message and who he was among them
Its Church history that none ever claimed and confirmed that those apostolic gifts still continued, as only ones who could ever claim were apostles were cults such as Mormons and JW
That is not true at all.
Around 160 AD Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 39) wrote that some believers recieved the gift of tongues, others of healing, and others of foresight.
Around 180 AD Irenaeus wrote the same (Against Heresies).
Clement and Tertullian wrote of these gifts continuing.
Apostolic Constitutions affirmed a continuation of these gifts (380 AD).
Augustine questioned these gifts as he thought they would lead men to look for visible proof rather than faith (he focused on salvation by faith). But he changed his mind as he knew of the blind being heald and other miracles. This would be around 425 AD.
So we know that from Christ to the 5th Century AD Christians believed these gifts continued.
But lets look closer to today:
Historically Lutherans have held a position of continuationism. So have many Baptists.
Luther certainly believed that healings continued (see Martin Luther: Selection from His Writings, John Dillenberger, ed., pg 354.)
The late Gordon Fee believed in the continuation of these gifts, as does Sam Storms and John Piper.
The important question is not whether healing continues today but why it may be lacking among some sects.
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Active Member
'None', is a pretty strong word. I would treat any that claimed to have the office of an Apostle the same way the Bereans treated the actual apostles in Acts 17...
Acts 17:11 KJV
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
...most likely these will turn out to be frauds.
No, the important question would be while we can agree to disagree if all of the gifts listed in the bible are for today, NONE since John ever claim and proved that the specific Apostolic gifting to do miracles and healings by themselves still remained among the Church going forward, and there were no additional revelations from God as Mormons and Sda claim.
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To be a real Apostle, one would either had to be numbered among the 12 of Christ, or else seen the resurrected Christ as Paul did and get commissioned, none today can claim either one
The Apostolic sign gifts were unique and specific just to them
What is the difference between an Apostle healing somebody or believers healing somebody?
When Augustine testified that he knew of people being healed this was the 5th century AD. When the early church fathers spoke of miracles being performed among the congregation this was after John the Apostle died.
Are you suggesting apostolic succession?
If not, how did these miracles occur without being performed by an Apostle?
If so, defend applying "apostle" to every believer.
When we see healings or miracles today, its us praying to God for Him to intervene, while Apostles had received power within themselves to do it
But this does not explain the headings in the Church centuries after the Apostles died.
You are not making sense.
Prove that those God gives these gifts have these gifts different from how the Apostles had these gifts.
Apostles always could heal or do a miracle when they chose to do such while we have NO so called faith healers able to duplicate that today
The first part is kinda correct (it was still up to God). For the second part you are trusting in your own subjective experience.
We know Chriatians claimed to have experienced these healings up to at least the 5th century.
We know Augustine testified to these hearings occurring.
We know that today many conservative Christians claim these miracles occur.
I remember Dr. Elmer Towns (a Southern Baptist theologians and professor....I suppose he's sill with us) talking about witnessing this while working in 3rd world countries).
So the question is not whether these things continue but why you have not experienced these things.
Why would healing continue for centuries after the Cross and then all of a sudden end?
Scripture gives one reason - a lack of faith.