Do you see Two Different levels of the Holy spirit Among believers today?

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, this is not to start a fight, or derail this thread, but I'd like to know what scripture you use and teaching that the gifts has ceased. I will not respond, just curious.

No one is starting a fight...this is a debate forum/general discussion forum...
no one is derailing the thread....

When ideas are posted, they can be believed, expanded on, questioned, or corrected. Dude puts forth ideas that are unbiblical.[in this thread] I ask him to show what he has to support his claims...he offers nothing but ad hominem response??
That is not acceptable.

but I'd like to know what scripture you use and teaching that the gifts has ceased. I will not respond, just curious

PNS....there are many verses used to teach that these revelatory gifts have ceased. I would offer them to you...if you would like to interact with them.
I welcome any biblical response.
Let me say for now there are a few ways this doctrine is approached.

1] what were sign gifts?

2] what was there purpose?

3] when , where, and how were they used by God ?

4] apostolic uniqueness

5] a closed canon[rule of scripture}...ie, the faith ...ONCE FOR ALL Delivered to the saints

as an introduction....from the 1689 confession of faith;

Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )

 

[plain_n_simple]

there are many verses used to teach that these revelatory gifts have ceased.

Can you list them? Do they stand on their own or does this teaching need to be explained verse by verse as you go? In other words, if you were to tell a new believer
"Here is a group of scriptures that tell us the gifts have stopped"

 

[Iconoclast]

there are many verses used to teach that these revelatory gifts have ceased.

Can you list them? Do they stand on their own or does this teaching need to be explained verse by verse as you go? In other words, if you were to tell a new believer
"Here is a group of scriptures that tell us the gifts have stopped"

PNS.....
The verses are many and need some understanding..

you are looking for one or two verses like this....

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

but that is not the way to understand this issue....
To come to truth at the very least...all those issues I listed,and more have to be dealt with. Are you familiar with those issues at all..Apostolic uniqueness for example? Do you know which chapters would support the teaching??? Do you know what the teaching is??



it would take a new thread to present it.....that can be done...but not tonight.

PNS...let me say it like this...i can teach pentecostal teaching...inside out. I know about your smith wigglesworth, william branham, alexander dowie, and all the false teachers in our day.
I can teach the verses and make a better case for it...then Dude....who did not offer one.....i can teach it...but know it is incorrect,and why it is incorrect.

can you present the other side ??? or is the teaching you hold to the only one you have been taught?

 

[righteousdude2]

So Say You...

No one is starting a fight...this is a debate forum/general discussion forum...
no one is derailing the thread....

When ideas are posted, they can be believed, expanded on, questioned, or corrected. Dude puts forth ideas that are unbiblical.[in this thread] I ask him to show what he has to support his claims...he offers nothing but ad hominem response??
That is not acceptable.



PNS....there are many verses used to teach that these revelatory gifts have ceased. I would offer them to you...if you would like to interact with them.
I welcome any biblical response.
Let me say for now there are a few ways this doctrine is approached.

1] what were sign gifts?

2] what was there purpose?

3] when , where, and how were they used by God ?

4] apostolic uniqueness

5] a closed canon[rule of scripture}...ie, the faith ...ONCE FOR ALL Delivered to the saints

as an introduction....from the 1689 confession of faith;

:thumbsup:

 

[plain_n_simple]

Yes I can present the other side, and was not taught this in my beginning. Just wanted your take on it, and you are right, it would take another thread. Thanks for the info.

 

[Iconoclast]

:thumbsup:

So dude...have you cleared your inbox yet????

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes I can present the other side, and was not taught this in my beginning. Just wanted your take on it, and you are right, it would take another thread. Thanks for the info.

Well..okay...what we can do tommorow is start another thread. I would like for you to present my side of the issue...in other words take the brief outline i offered ...and offer a few verses, or a sentence or two about each idea expressed....i will see what you have on it...then respond if you like...How does that sound?

 

[plain_n_simple]

Well..okay...what we can do tommorow is start another thread. I would like for you to present my side of the issue...in other words take the brief outline i offered ...and offer a few verses, or a sentence or two about each idea expressed....i will see what you have on it...then respond if you like...How does that sound?

Why would I present the opposing side when I have witnessed healing and other gifts? I am going to study your take on it and maybe a Calvinistic veiwpoint if I can find a site on the web. Sorry for getting off the OP friends.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why would I present the opposing side when I have witnessed healing and other gifts? I am going to study your take on it and maybe a Calvinistic veiwpoint if I can find a site on the web. Sorry for getting off the OP friends.

We should study it because we want to obey GOd's word. I spoke with a woman who was very nice and sincere, who told me that the angel moroni appeared in her living room and assured her that the book of mormon was 100% from god. She also said she saw it. WAS she wrong?
On what basis would you question her experience? She ...just like you claimed ...she saw it!

 

[DaChaser1]

.....you are a littel off about several of your premises.

1) The gift of tongues is part and parcel of the initial Baptism, There is, IMHO, NO second phenomena. At least that I am aware of.

2) As for: Being SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT ( something similar took place when the Roman soldiers went to arrest Jesus, and they asked where Jesus was, and when His presence was made known, they were knocked off their feet, humbled before Him).

Getting "DRUNK IN THE SPIRIT, LAUGHING UNCONTROLLABLY (HOLY LAUGHTER), MAKING ANIMAL SOUNDS, and ROLLING ON THE CARPET" are nothing more than theatrical/dramatic hysterics on behalf of the WOF/Name it Claim it (NiCi) crowd.

There is no Scripture to support these behaviors. Some spirit-filled persons take being spirit filled WAY Toooooooooooo far. However, then again, some believers in every denomination (Westboro Baptist church for one) make a complete donkey butt out of their doctrinal stands, practices, and beliefs.

We don't toss out the bushel because there are a few bad apples in it. We selectively go through what we have, and spiritually discern, examine, inspect and scrutinize what we find in order to remain on the mark. :thumbsup:

Pentacostalists,I know as once was one, would hold that Tongues are given to ALL who have experiencedHoly Ghost baptism, in which by faith and asking of God we would get a fuller measure/empowering to live for God and to witness...

AFTER getting saved, distinct from that intial HS infilling...

problem is they use Acts as proof, and much of that was one time only transistional period !

Also, we are ALL filled to same measure by same Spirit, with either indweelin or refilling aspects, NOT 2 seperate distinct phases!

And IF tongues are for today, the Holy Spirit HIMSELF grants EACH spriitually gift as he so wills us to have them, so not up to Us to get a gift or not, but up to us to use and exercise ones He gives us!

 

[DaChaser1]

Why would I present the opposing side when I have witnessed healing and other gifts? I am going to study your take on it and maybe a Calvinistic veiwpoint if I can find a site on the web. Sorry for getting off the OP friends.

We believe tht the Lord is still and does heal, but it is a miracle, and based upon HIS WILL when it does happen, NO faith healers gifted to do such!

No sign gifts operate today, as we no longer have ongoing reveltionf from god to us, no offices for Apostles.prophets still for today!

 

[drfuss]

Many Pentacostalists,I know as once was one, would hold that Tongues are given to ALL who have experiencedHoly Ghost baptism, in which by faith and asking of God we would get a fuller measure/empowering to live for God and to witness...

AFTER getting saved, distinct from that intial HS infilling...

problem is they use Acts as proof, and much of that was one time only transistional period !

Also, we are ALL filled to same measure by same Spirit, with either indweelin or refilling aspects, NOT 2 seperate distinct phases!

And IF tongues are for today, the Holy Spirit HIMSELF grants EACH spriitually gift as he so wills us to have them, so not up to Us to get a gift or not, but up to us to use and exercise ones He gives us!

Note, I clarified your post above. As with Baptists being different on various issues (such as having a Private Prayer Language), emphasis on speaking in tongues varies and is expressed differently, by different Pentecostal ministers.

 

[plain_n_simple]

I spoke with a woman who was very nice and sincere, who told me that the angel moroni appeared in her living room and assured her that the book of mormon was 100% from god. She also said she saw it. WAS she wrong?
On what basis would you question her experience? She ...just like you claimed ...she saw it!

I could not question it with any real basis. She believes what she saw. I can say that Moroni is not in scripture, and it was more than likely Satan to misguide her. My experience was not an apparition. It was woman who had been deaf since birth. You could yell at the top of your lungs behind her and she would not hear. Over 30 in the church knew her and acknowledged this. After the laying on of hands, the woman now hears perfectly. Was this wrong? No. Was it Satan? Satan does not heal. Satan is trying to destroy. Was it the result of a person with the gift of healing? I do not know. The bible also says that true believers will heal in His name, and that teaching says nothing of the gifts. Can I prove this healing to you? No. So I would not take the position of proving gifts have ceased as a study basis because what I've seen might of been a gift. I'll close here because this is another subject entirely.

 

[righteousdude2]

I've...

So dude...have you cleared your inbox yet????

...forwarded the problem to a specail committee, and they assure me it will be fixed soon! :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

PNS.

I could not question it with any real basis. She believes what she saw

The word of God is the basis to measure all experiences by.Her experience was not of God at all.....she needed to be told that.
I am glad to hear that God restored the womans hearing in your church.
All healing comes from God. We have experienced God healing in answer to prayer.We have also experienced God not healing in answer to prayer also.

With the healing.....it was not a sign gift. It was God healing in answer to prayer. Sign gifts have ceased having been foundational.

 

[Iconoclast]

...forwarded the problem to a specail committee, and they assure me it will be fixed soon! :laugh:

Well ...until they fix it....let me just say that the message you sent is similar to what I would have to say about your views and imput in your posts...:laugh::laugh: That is the nature of it dude.
You can do whatever you wish,and post what you do. I will do likewise.

 

[DaChaser1]

Note, I clarified your post above. As with Baptists being different on various issues (such as having a Private Prayer Language), emphasis on speaking in tongues varies and is expressed differently, by different Pentecostal ministers.

Thanks!

Think the basic problems here on tis OP are that baptists and Pentacostalists define same terminology, but with different meanings, and that there is no sure foundation in regards to say sign gifts/healings, as those are either NOT needed to grant extra revelation today, or else God is healer, NOT faith healers!

 

[gb93433]

Baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, then you'll see Jesus manifesting through that person doing awesome things.

Throw out the Anglican transliteration and translate the word as immersed. Being immersed in the Holy Spirit is not limited to speaking in tongues. I have seen tongues speakers on Sunday who do not pay their bills on Monday.

 

[saturneptune]

There are not two baptisms of the Holy Ghost. When we are saved, we get the Holy Ghost in His completeness. We all, as believers, have the same amount of the Holy Ghost.

That is exactly right. I never heard of "two levels of the Holy Spirit." I guess in a sense that would change the Trinity into a group of four known as the Quad God.

 

[DaChaser1]

That is exactly right. I never heard of "two levels of the Holy Spirit." I guess in a sense that would change the Trinity into a group of four known as the Quad God.

Well, benny hinn has said that the HS revelaed to him that God Himself is truine in each person of the trinity, so God is really nine not three!