Do you think Greek should be taught in Christian schools?

[Plain Old Bill]

Or we could do it this way.
AV1611Jim I see you have the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. All should be seen through your eyes with no variance. We don't even need to bother thinking, we can just ask you what to think.
Please tell us what things should children learn in Christian schools. Please give us the whole loaf of bread (all subjects grade k_12).

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Cute, but invalid conclusion. Because YOU had problems with Spanish et al does not mean students would not benefit from it.

Circuitrider hit the nail. Our kids NEED exposure to spoken languages (French, Spanish, etc) to help them with missions.

We are talking school-age kids here. Telling them to memorize verse in ENGLISH instead of learning a foreign language is a false dilemma.

HAVE THEM DO BOTH.

__________________________________________________

False conclusion.
I had straight A's in both Spanish and Greek.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Or we could do it this way.
AV1611Jim I see you have the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. All should be seen through your eyes with no variance. We don't even need to bother thinking, we can just ask you what to think.
Please tell us what things should children learn in Christian schools. Please give us the whole loaf of bread (all subjects grade k_12).

__________________________________________________

Just because I disagree with the majority here; that gives you the basis to make a ridiculous claim ascribing to me something I never said? That assumption can be reversed right back upon you Greekers.

Your conclusion, sir, is why I submit that this nation is pitifully undereducated.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

Johnv has said, "Any idiot can memorize scripture."
__________________________________________________

So...have you joined the ranks of the "idiots" who memorize Scripture yet?

"Thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against Thee."

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Johnv]

Nice dodge. Typical KJVOist tactic.

 

[Karen]

I don't know about this thread.

This is a prime example of one in which I have some interest in responding and take a while to think of something to say. But then I really debate whether or not it is worth it because the accusations of KJVO, or fill in the blank start flying.

Also, gb, you kind of intimidate me with your posts. You sure sound like a my way or the highway kind of teacher. That if anybody has any troubles in your classes, it MUST be because of coddling parents, lack of motivation, laziness. Couldn't possibly be anything else such as a failure to clearly communicate on your part.

Or, expecting too much. A kid that spends 7-8 hours a day at school and then 4-5 hours a night on homework is spending too much time on school work. There does need to be family time, church time, hobbies, exercise, sleep, goofing off. Maybe you don't mean 4-5 hours a night, but many who sound like you do mean that.

Anyway, my kids go to a great private Christian school. It is state-accredited. And I want state accreditation. When kids have to enter public school, there are big problems entering from a non-accredited school.
This school does not teach Greek. But it has taught Latin for a number of years for all the reasons mentioned plus more. One of my children did fine. Another really struggled. And no, it was not because he was lazy or we coddled him.

The pastor, I am sure, can make recommendations, but there is a school board, a budget to be met,college entrance standards to meet, and choices to be made. Finding a certified Greek teacher, at a price the school and parents could afford, would be a challenge.
This school has various Bible survey courses, Scripture memory, and missions endeavours.
If they were able to offer Greek as an elective, more power to the people that would want to take it, and I am sure it would help them. However, one should not assume others making a different choice were less spiritual or more lazy.

I would be more interested in seeing a church or group of churches offer Greek to interested adults and youth.

No, I am not KJVO remotely. Haven't even used a KJV in years. I like the ESV and NIV.

Karen

 

[ktn4eg]

Karen,

The acceptance of credits from a Christian school by a public school varies widely. Sometimes it can even vary from one school district to another in the same state.

All of this depends (primarily) on what each state decides.

In TN, for example, if a Christian school is accredited by the TN Assn of Christian Schools (TACS) and has State Agency Approval granted by TACS, there is little or no problem transferring credits for SIMILAR work done by that christian school to the public school venue in TN.

Not every state christian school assn (and there are many w/in any given state) has such a good working relationship as TACS does.

Long ago it was the wise decision of "the powers that be" w/in the TACS to stop viewing the state's educational bureaucacy with an adversarial perspective and work along side of them to see what each required.

Teachers can get certification from TACS, but it's a rigid, multi-leveled thing, not some "if the price is right" scam.

I can ONLY speak from what was a 17-year experience in a TACS accredited, state agency approved school and nothing else.

Your experience/situation may be different. Each needs to be analyzed in the light of what specific events may have transpired at that given time and circumstance and location.

 

[Karen]

Dear ktn4eg,
Thanks for your comments. And you are absolutely right. Things do differ widely.
In my local area, there are 3 Christian high schools. In the one my kids attend/have attended
(one is in college) there is no problem.
With two of them, the local school district does not accept the work unless the student also passes a test. Which sounds ok on the surface, but that test is often very textbook specific.

Oklahoma is possibly one of the easiest states overall in which to homeschool or have a private school.

Karen

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Nice dodge. Typical KJVOist tactic.

_________________________________________________

Ditto brother ditto. Nice dodge. Typical of the "Greekers". Well..? have you joined the ranks of the "idiots"?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Karen:

Also, gb, you kind of intimidate me with your posts. You sure sound like a my way or the highway kind of teacher. That if anybody has any troubles in your classes, it MUST be because of coddling parents, lack of motivation, laziness. Couldn't possibly be anything else such as a failure to clearly communicate on your part.

Or, expecting too much. A kid that spends 7-8 hours a day at school and then 4-5 hours a night on homework is spending too much time on school work. There does need to be family time, church time, hobbies, exercise, sleep, goofing off. Maybe you don't mean 4-5 hours a night, but many who sound like you do mean that.

Learning is not all about hours but what you do with those hours. One of the things I learned about high school dropouts is that there were those who found the challenge too much but there were those who found it too easy. School is about hard work and receiving the pleasure of a job well done. To do this requires that the teacher bring the student to the point of the highest possible achievement without exasperating them. That is a tedious job. My job as a teacher is to help students be successful not just work hard. Teaching is my passion and greatest pleasure.

Sometime read, The Essential 55: An Award-Winning Educator's Rules for Discovering the Successful Student in Every Child by Ron Clark. Ron Clark was the teacher of the year I think in 2002. He demands a lot of elementary school. But you can be very demanding if you love your students. Students will produce if they know their teacher cares.

Everyone likes to be a part of a winning team. Dealing with students is like feeding corn to chickens. When there is solid discipline there is peace and a quietness in a student’s spirit. You don’t need to intimidate students who are disciplined. They love you and they know you care.

The difference between a good teacher and poor one is how they teach students to learn more and excel. When students are pushed they learn things they could not learn any other way. I had the privilege of doing my student teaching under a Christian man who at one time dealt with troubled teenagers. What that man could do was nothing less than incredible. In one of the classes was a student who had murdered someone. You would have never guessed that by his behavior in that teacher’s class.

As a teacher I have the opportunity to radically change someone’s life because I care enough to give them my best and expect their best. It’s been said that for a student to achieve the last ten percent requires six times more work.

The problem we have in America is we have many who are semi-skilled when the world needs highly skilled and unskilled labor. Those who are highly skilled are in great demand. “Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.”

I believe that most any student can have good success if given enough help. But we must care enough to give them plenty of help so they can be very successful.

 

[Karen]

Dear gb,
Thanks for a great clarification.

Karen

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Dera AV161Jim,
I made that remark based on your entries which implied that everybody not only should agree with you but must agree with you. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. My entry was supposed to get your dander up.I wanted you to see how people were taking what you were saying.

You know more often than not it is how we say what we say instead of what we say.

Now so you know I am KJV preferred 1-3.I memorize scripture.I believe our schools have dumbed down our students.I believe some parents don't take enough interest in thier childrens education.I believe we can do better by raising the bar instead of leaving it where it is or lowering it.

Also so you know I am not an educated snob.I did'nt go from high school to college to seminary or graduate school in a straight line. I quit school in the 10th grade and joined the army,got a GED and started taking college classes as soon as I found out it would get me out of KP(kitchen police) and gaurd duty.It turned out I was a better college student than I ever was in high school. I took whatever classes were available.I also went to army technical schools and took correspondence courses.I have taken Bible courses by correspondence and in the classroom and have some seminary training.I will as time goes by continue my education and schooling until my dying day I suppose because I am just naturally curious.I have whatever education I have by hook or crook you might say.Some of the schools I have attended are U of MD,LACC,Liberty,Bethany Bible College& Seminary,Faith Luthren Seminary,NRI,& CIE as well as military technical schools and Bell(phone company) schools.
I love to go out on visitation and I love going to church,it's the best time I have.I think you should be at least as enthusiastic about going to church as you are going to or watching a football game on tv and you should get sat least as excited. So I think that makes me a pretty standard guy.

I told you all of that so you would have some understanding of me and find that we probably have more in common that you might think.

 

[El_Guero]

Yes, people should learn Greek ...

... No, Greek does NOT enhance one's ability to exegete or interpret God's Word ...

But, Latin, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, German, French may be better choices for a second language ...

 

[av1611jim]

P.O.B.;
You are right, we DO have a lot in common.
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to communicate such things via the www.
Your expression "by hook or by crook" was a favorite of my mothers. (She's in heaven). I think that one dated you!
Anyhow, I agree totally with your last post.
I did not say or mean that everyone must agree with me. Bullies do that. When one asks ;"What do ya think?", they should expect several different viewpoints. My intent was simply to point out what I see as the more important excercise for our kids to pursue in a "Christian" school setting. In our church, we have kids in Master's Club who memorize entire chapters of Scripture. One recent example comes to mind. This kid memorized all of Rom. 1-3. Another kid memorized all of James. These MC kids do this in addition to their school work. So it is not so far out of line to expect that others could do it also. Maybe not whole chapters, but at least goodly chunks of Scripture. And why not?
Yes, my best times are in church. "I was glad when they said, let us go unto the house of the Lord".
As for teaching/learning foreign languages? Current spoken languages of the day in this world is certainly a good idea. I have never said otherwise. Dead languages are not as much help as some would like to think so IMO. This web board is such a small sample of the folks out there. Here; it seems {B]every body[/B] wants to be the Greek scholar. I remain unmovable, one can get a lot more out of their walk with God if that time spent , were spent in Scripture memorization.
"Thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against Thee".
In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Ditto brother ditto. Nice dodge. Typical of the "Greekers".

I have dodged nothing. It is noted, however, that you have refrained from addressing the points raised in my post.

Well..? have you joined the ranks of the "idiots"?

Your question is inflammatory, as well as infantile in nature. If you wnat to know if I memorize scripture, yes, I do, as do you. Unlike you, however, I don't choose ignorance by refusing to have a comprehension for the language scripture's source texts were wtitten in. You, and most KJVO's do, however. Why? Because the source texts of the KJV refute KJVOism. Since KJVOism is false doctrine, belief in it requires one to remain ignorant of scripture.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Hey JohnV ,
Although I understand your points please refrain from a KJVO arguement, it takes away from what we are talking about.

I personally think all Christians should learn Greek.I think Greek should be taught in Christian schools for many reasons.

I'm thanking you for your time and understanding.

 

[Johnv]

My apologies. My point with that arguement was that having a comprehension of the source texts refutes KJVOism, which explains why KJVO's are typically against the idea that we should learn the languages of the scriptural soure texts. The hijack was unintended.

I, like you, think it's worthwhile and proper for Christians to learn koine Greek, and that doing so will reslt in nothing less that having a greater understanding of scripture.

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by av1611jim:
I spent tons of time memorizing all sorts of verbs, nouns, tenses, articles, participles, blah blah blah, so that I could pass my exams in Greek. I submit; That time would have been better spent memorizing Scripture instead.

Any idiot can memorize scripture. Mormons, JW's, and KJVO's do it all the time, and look how warped and unscriptural their doctrine is.

Memorizing is not the same as understanding. How do you know that scripture is God-breathed? It is because you understand the Greek context of the word that is translated "inspired" in the NT.

Learning koine Greek does nothing to detract from scriptural understanding. In fact, it greatly adds to one's scriptural understanding, and I submit that it gives a person the ability to comprehend scripture more quickly and effectively than if they had not learned koine Greek. </font>[/QUOTE]_________________________________________________
Ok, Johnv. Point by point.
1.You said any idiot can memorize Scripture. Then are you an idiot? This statement of yours is inflammatory. You do not need to make such revelations of your obvious elitist attitude.
2. Next, you equate memorizing Scripture with Mormons, JW's, and KJVo's. Effectively saying that if one concentrated on memorization of Scriptures alone then he must be one of the above. Which would put Dwight Moody (for example)in pretty questionable company.
3. Next, you said memorizing is not the same as understanding. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against Thee". What is so tough here? Certainly you do not suggest that memorization of scripture is pointless? Or is it that you seem to think that a Christian can memorize Scripture without understanding it? If that is the case then it appears to me that you have discounted the Holy Spirit's quickening power to bring understanding as we hide the word in our hearts.
4.I never knew the the Scriptures were "God-breathed" until I took Greek. That much is true. However, I have always understood the Scripture when it says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...". Why? Because I have a dictionary. It says, "a divine influence or action on a person held to qualify him to receive and communicate sacred revelation". Now what's not to understand?
5. Next, your last paragraph is just so much parroting, I choose to ignore it, with this one exception. It appears, again, that you totally negate the Holy Spirit's quickening power to bring understanding completely apart from the Greek. As if, God can't use english to communicate His very truths without one knowing Greek. Hmmm, That thought greatly resembles your constant diatribe against KJVo's assertion that the KJV brings better understanding of Scripture than modern English translations. Hmmm...Greek...Elizabethen English...? Things that make you go hmmm!

Your turn. Explain how time taken from one thing greatly enhances it. Just exactly how is it? It takes considerable time for one to master Greek enough to be able to read and understand Greek texts. Be they Nestles, or Schriveners or whoever's. Doesn't matter. It takes tons of time to master it sufficiently. Now how does that even remotely compare to Scripture memorization accomplished in the same amount of time?


In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Johnv]

It has been requested that this not become a KJVO debate. I have complied out of respect fo the OP. Kindly do the same.

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Explain how time taken from one thing greatly enhances it.

You're presuming that taking time to do one thing automatically takes time away from something else. By your reckoning, I shouldn't use the bathroom, because it takes time away from reading scripture. That's a rather poor argument against studying the language of scriptural source texts.

Just exactly how is it? It takes considerable time for one to master Greek enough to be able to read and understand Greek texts.

You can get a rather adequate understanding of Greek by taking a basic q or 2 semester Greek course at many community colleges. Some also offer koine Greek. Most church-affliated colleges offer a basic course in koine Greek. Classes typically run 1 night a week, for about 3 hours a session. Most people spend more time than that watching baseball. Not that I have anything against baseball, mind you.

It takes tons of time to master it sufficiently.

That's a common copout used for the arguement of higher learning in general, not just on this topic. But, as far as having a basic understanding of koine, or any other language, it really doesn't take much time at all. Sure, to speak like a pro as though it were your primary language, sure it will take years, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about having a BASIC understanding.

Now how does that even remotely compare to Scripture memorization accomplished in the same amount of time?

Again, you proceed from he false presumption that learning a language will take time away from scriptural study. That's a ridiculous copout which can be appplied to just about anyy activity.

 

[Scott J]

I wish able pastors would teach the basics of NT Greek. Some do I know but I wish it were common.

But more critically, Christians today are in a unique position compared with our forebearers. We have both the resources and time for even the most humble pew sitter to learn the languages and study the Bible in the languages God chose to reveal Himself in.

It is a testimony to our apathy, worldliness, and laziness that more of us don't do it. (And no I haven't done it either. I still rely on the knowledge of others through commentaries/Strong's/Vine's/etc.