Do you think there is chance?

[zrs6v4]

I was just thinking and was wondering if anyone here believes in chance or luck? This seems to directly relate to God's sovereignty in all events so the question boils down to "What does sovereign really mean?"

Definition of chance (dictionary.com): the absence of any cause of events that can be predicted, understood, or controlled: often personified or treated as a positive agency

If God isn't in control of every little event then is He not totally sovereign? Every little event from the fall of a leaf to the destruction of a city by the way. Not only the fall of a leaf but also the binding together of the elements in the leaf to make it a leaf.

If one doesn't believe God is in control of every little event then does that mean that God isn't completely sovereign?

I personally do not believe in chance yet it seems that there are many tough questions that flow from this and Ill give a few.

-God's control over one coming to Him in salvation.
-God's control over the death and destruction of life.
-God's control over people who reject Him.
-God's control over the fall and continual sin of mankind.
-The actions of the lost people.
-God's control over literally every single thing that happens from thoughts to actions, and on and on.

If God isn't in control of the things listed above then does God just sit back and let them happen by chance or luck of the draw and work around them?

So what is your view on this? Just take it where you would begin to break this discussion down. Please try to stay on topic.... If Possible

 

[Winman]

If one doesn't believe God is in control of every little event then does that mean that God isn't completely sovereign?

It depends on how you define control. If my kids asked to go to the movies, and I told them they could watch any of the six shows available except one certain very bad movie, if they go to one of the allowed movies are they obeying me? Yes, of course. I have allowed them freedom and choice, and yet they are under my control.

It is obvious God is allowing men freedom, because the scriptures says God never tempts any man to sin, yet every person sins.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

In Jeremiah the Jews were worshipping false gods and sacrificing their children to them. And God says this never entered his mind or heart, and that he never commanded it.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

So how can God be controlling every little event when he said the Jews were sacrificing their children to false gods which he never commanded? He even says this evil never came into his heart.

So, it is obvious God allows men great freedom to perform their own actions.

 

[zrs6v4]

Another thing to add is that the opposite of Chance/Luck/Accident is Purpose. If there is a purpose for every single thing that happens then every single thing that happens is for a reason and must break down to a purpose giver.

For example, If the Fall just happened by chance then God would have basically been sitting back and watching the accident happen, but I think there was a purpose for the fall. I dont think the Fall just happened and God came up with an alternative route to respond to the accident.

 

[zrs6v4]

It depends on how you define control. If my kids asked to go to the movies, and I told them they could watch any of the six shows available except one certain very bad movie, if they go to one of the allowed movies are they obeying me? Yes, of course. I have allowed them freedom and choice, and yet they are under my control.

It is obvious God is allowing men freedom, because the scriptures says God never tempts any man to sin, yet every person sins.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

In Jeremiah the Jews were worshipping false gods and sacrificing their children to them. And God says this never entered his mind or heart, and that he never commanded it.

Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

So how can God be controlling every little event when he said the Jews were sacrificing their children to false gods which he never commanded? He even says this evil never came into his heart.

So, it is obvious God allows men great freedom to perform their own actions.

Winman thanks for the response. You started your line of thinking much differently than I did, so it will be tough for us to understand each other and get on the same page to work out our attempt to understand this.

I would start by agreeing that God has no part of sin, no joy for sin, no excitement in punishing people for sin, nor does He, by His Spirit, lead people to sin in anyway. Thus, Sin never enters or proceeds from the heart of God for an intent of His ways.

But to try to understand your position, you seem to be saying that God has no control over their sin in that he basically stands back, watches, and works around it? Please explain so I can comprehend your view.

I would say that sin falls under the control of God, not that God has any part of it in that He Himself sins or tempts people to do so (This is a mystery). If sin weren't in God's control, then would it not be mere chance with no purpose? I am working on understanding how God can use a fallen world of sin and not simply work around it with His will. It seems that everything that happens is for a purpose and not by chance. Do you follow? If God was not in control of the tornado that killed 500 children then there was no purpose for it, right?

I'm not trying to force my view, but simply reasoning to understand God and His ways better.

 

[Winman]

But to try to understand your position, you seem to be saying that God has no control over their sin in that he basically stands back, watches, and works around it? Please explain so I can comprehend your view.

Well, it's not that complicated. God never wants man to sin or perish and go to hell, but men do both. But isn't it God that casts the unbelieving sinner in hell? So, he is still in charge. But at the same time, he allows man choice of whether he will believe or not.

I read this analogy on another site once, and it seemed pretty good. It is like people on a cruise ship. While they are on that ship they have complete freedom of movement and actions, but at the same time they are under the control of the captain who is taking the ship to a predetermined destination. All analogies fail at some point, but this seems pretty good to me.

To me, it is God's foreknowledge that must be taken into consideration. God knew even before he created man that man would sin, and had already planned a solution to it.

Now, I believe God had to give man free will. First, we are made in his image, but second, it is impossible to have true love without freedom of choice. You cannot force anyone to love you. Love is a risk, it is a chance. You cannot control another person's choice to love you or not, or else it is not love. Oh, you can show love and kindness to a person to entice them and persuade them to love you, but that is all you can do. The moment you force it, it is no longer love.

Giving a person a choice is not the same as determination. Here is an example:

My car has a speedometer that goes up to 130 MPH. Now, my car is old, but it will probably go 100 MPH.

Now, if I get a speeding ticket, is it the fault of Honda? After all, Honda knew people would drive over 65 MPH, so why did they make a car that would go much faster?

Well, in reality, to cruise on the highway at 65 MPH, you have to have a car that will go much faster. If you built a car that can only go 65 MPH, it will probably blow up if you drive it much over 40 MPH.

Do you understand that?

It is the same with free will. God had to give us free will in order that we have the ability to love him. A robot cannot love, a programmed computer cannot love. No, to love you must have choice. But this freedom of will to love him also gives us the ability to hate him and sin.

So, it is not Honda's fault that I drove 80 MPH and got a ticket in a 45 MPH zone. I am completely responsible how fast I drive my car. Honda had to make a car that would go that fast in order that my car could cruise easily at 65 MPH.

And it is not God's fault that I sin, even though he gave me ability to do so.

Do you follow that?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Another thing to add is that the opposite of Chance/Luck/Accident is Purpose. If there is a purpose for every single thing that happens then every single thing that happens is for a reason and must break down to a purpose giver.

For example, If the Fall just happened by chance then God would have basically been sitting back and watching the accident happen, but I think there was a purpose for the fall. I dont think the Fall just happened and God came up with an alternative route to respond to the accident.

All things have their origin with God as he is the creator of all things including sin. God could have prevented sin from occurring. When God created intelligent beings and gave them power of choice he created the potential of sin to become reality. When He purposed to create power of choice He purposed to permit the occurrence of sin.

However, he also created those with power of choice to be "responsible" for their free choice so that any choice to sin was their responsibility not God's.

So sin originates with God as far as its potential reality and permission to occur but in regard to responsibility for its actual occurrence it originates with free will.

God intentionally purposed to allow its occurrence through responsible agents in order to glorify Himself. He does not allow any sin that will not ultimately glorify Himself, His purposes and the good of His children:

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain. - Psa. 76:10

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. - Rom. 8;28

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: - Eph. 1:11

The fallen human race He uses for His own glory to obtain His own purposes:

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? - Rom. 9:17-23


9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. - Isa.46:9-11

 

[Winman]

So sin originates with God as far as its potential reality and permission to occur but in regard to responsibility for its actual occurrence it originates with free will.

But here is the problem. If God cursed man so that he lost the ability to do good and could only do evil, then God has gone beyond simply giving man the freedom to do good or evil, and made sin an absolute certainty. This would make God the direct cause of sin.

I do not believe God cursed man in this way. There is nothing said in the curse pronounced upon Adam in that he would no longer be able to freely choose between good and evil. In fact, the scriptures say man now knew both good and evil. And in chapter 4 God says that Cain could have done good if he chose to do so.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I gave the analogy of our cars. Our cars are designed to go much faster than the posted speed limit in able to be able to cruise without damage to the engine at 65-70 MPH. But we as drivers can drive the speed limit without going over if we choose to do so. So, the manufacturer cannot be held responsible if we go over the limit.

However, if the manufacturer made the vehicle so that it would go well over the known speed limits and we could do nothing to control it, then the manufacturer would be at fault and could be held liable.

But if man retains the ability to do both good and evil as I believe, then the doctrine of Total Depravity as understood by Calvinists is proved false.

Checkmate.

 

[npetreley]

I was just thinking and was wondering if anyone here believes in chance or luck?

Not me.

Even when they played "dice" in the Bible, it was to discover God's will, not to determine something by chance.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend,

God never cursed anyone. Adam was appointed by God as the representative for free will and Adam cursed his own race by his own free choice.

The Bible is very clear about the fallen condition of the human nature but you simply reject clear and explicit statements that deal with that condition. Romans 3:9-20 is very clear about EVERY HUMAN BEING in the fallen race of Adam. Romans 8:7-9 is very clear about the fallen Human nature in contrast to the regenerated nature. You simply do not believe what these texts say. Instead, you give a third view of man - NEUTRAL - who can choose contrary to His own nature. God cannot even choose contrary to His own nature as there are many things God CANNOT do because of the dictates of His own nature.

But here is the problem. If God cursed man so that he lost the ability to do good and could only do evil, then God has gone beyond simply giving man the freedom to do good or evil, and made sin an absolute certainty. This would make God the direct cause of sin.

I do not believe God cursed man in this way. There is nothing said in the curse pronounced upon Adam in that he would no longer be able to freely choose between good and evil. In fact, the scriptures say man now knew both good and evil. And in chapter 4 God says that Cain could have done good if he chose to do so.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I gave the analogy of our cars. Our cars are designed to go much faster than the posted speed limit in able to be able to cruise without damage to the engine at 65-70 MPH. But we as drivers can drive the speed limit without going over if we choose to do so. So, the manufacturer cannot be held responsible if we go over the limit.

However, if the manufacturer made the vehicle so that it would go well over the known speed limits and we could do nothing to control it, then the manufacturer would be at fault and could be held liable.

But if man retains the ability to do both good and evil as I believe, then the doctrine of Total Depravity as understood by Calvinists is proved false.

Checkmate.

 

[Winman]

Faith itself is defined as risk or chance.

Say a total stranger came up to you and said he needed your car to run a very important errand, and promised when he came back in a couple of hours that he would give you $200. He asks you to trust him.

This is risk, this is chance. You have no absolute way to know if he is telling the truth or not. He may return your car and give you the $200 as he promised, or he might be lying and steal your car.

You decide that the fellow seems honest. He is well dressed and he seems to be very sincere. You hand him the keys to your car and he drives off.

You have just taken a chance, a risk. That is what faith is.

Risk:

3. to expose to the chance of injury or loss; hazard: to risk one's life.
4. to venture upon; take or run the chance of: to risk a fall in climbing; to risk a war.

 

[Winman]

God never cursed anyone. Adam was appointed by God as the representative for free will and Adam cursed his own race by his own free choice.

I agree with you, God cursed the ground, not Adam and Eve.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Now, saying the woman would have great sorrow in conception might be considered a curse, I don't know for certain. But I do know for certain God cursed the ground.

But how could Adam curse himself? What power did Adam have to alter man's ability to do good or evil? I would like to see some scripture on that.

But in fact, God did not say he cursed Adam's nature, and he did not say Adam cursed his own nature. In fact, God said man now knew both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God did not say one word to the effect that man could no longer do good. In fact, he said man had become like God in knowing good and evil. If knowing good and evil is evil, then God himself would be evil.

No, this is an invention of man never mentioned in the scriptures even once. Augustine made this false doctrine popular, and Calvin picked it up from him.
But man clearly retained the ability to do good as shown with Cain in the very next chapter.

And by the way, most Calvinists and Reformed churches do teach that God caused Adam to be depraved.

In the second place. that God killed Adam means that God made Adam totally depraved. That is what death is. Death and total depravity are synonymous. How does the apostle Paul express it in Ephesians 2:1? "But you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins." The punishment therefore, for Adam's awful transgression was that . He God brought upon Adam the horror of total depravity made him a slave of sin with the whole of his being and nature. That was the punishment for sin. And it is in terms of the punishment for sin that we must consider the truth of total depravity. Because sin is so terrible, it deserves such terrible punishment. That punishment is the total depravity of man's nature. All men therefore are totally depraved.

And before you accuse me falsely of misunderstanding Calvinism, here is the source for that quote.

http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html

So for a fact, many Calvinists make God directly responsible for sin.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am not a Calvinist. There are as many views in so-called Calvinism as there are in so-called Arminianism. I don't claim Calvin. I don't believe all that Calvin believed. I am a Biblicist that you call a Calvinist.

The Bible clearly and explicitly and repeatedly claims that the fallen nature cannot and will not seek God or the things of God. John 6:44 is a direct statement to this fact because if that were not the case then the Father would not have to draw any but they COULD come of their own free choice.

The very fact that Christ says "NO MAN CAN COME" demnstrates the explicit fact the fallen nature is incapable of choosing to come to Christ. Now, don't give me any "yeah, but by the Spirit he can" as that does not deny the fact that without the Spirit his nature is incapable and his will is incapable or else Jesus would have never had to say "NO MAN CAN" come.

The same is true of Romans 3:10-11 and Romans 8:7 "neither indeed CAN BE." Such language is foolish if man's nature was capable of freely choosing to submit to God.

The same is true in Romans 7:14-25 in the regenerated man. Paul is claiming that apart from the power of Christ even the inward man has no ability to overcome the will of the flesh which NEVER chooses to do good.

Your position is so obviously wrong that even you have to argue that the fallen nature of man NEEDS God to intervene in order to come to Christ.

So why keep beating a dead dog?? The fallen nature will not and therefore cannot come to Christ, seek after God or submit to the law of God by its own free choice any more than God can sin, lie or choose to do anything contrary to His own nature.

I agree with you, God cursed the ground, not Adam and Eve.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Now, saying the woman would have great sorrow in conception might be considered a curse, I don't know for certain. But I do know for certain God cursed the ground.

But how could Adam curse himself? What power did Adam have to alter man's ability to do good or evil? I would like to see some scripture on that.

But in fact, God did not say he cursed Adam's nature, and he did not say Adam cursed his own nature. In fact, God said man now knew both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God did not say one word to the effect that man could no longer do good. In fact, he said man had become like God in knowing good and evil. If knowing good and evil is evil, then God himself would be evil.

No, this is an invention of man never mentioned in the scriptures even once. Augustine made this false doctrine popular, and Calvin picked it up from him.
But man clearly retained the ability to do good as shown with Cain in the very next chapter.

And by the way, most Calvinists and Reformed churches do teach that God caused Adam to be depraved.



And before you accuse me falsely of misunderstanding Calvinism, here is the source for that quote.

http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html

So for a fact, many Calvinists make God directly responsible for sin.

 

[zrs6v4]

Well, it's not that complicated. God never wants man to sin or perish and go to hell, but men do both. But isn't it God that casts the unbelieving sinner in hell? So, he is still in charge. But at the same time, he allows man choice of whether he will believe or not.

I wish it wasnt that complicated, but it is. Do you believe God ever sits back and lets events or choices to be made with no control over them. In other words, does God let things happen without having a purpose or plan for them?

To me, it is God's foreknowledge that must be taken into consideration. God knew even before he created man that man would sin, and had already planned a solution to it.

I do think God is all wise and does not have to learn. I agree that before creation began God knew all things and didnt have to see any outcomes to work around. It just doesn't seem to make sense when you think a little further though. If God simply looked at all of the situations that happen/ed by chance without ordering them and ordaining them then those events were meaningless and had no purpose other than using them for His purpose.

If God used all of these human choices to establish His will then It wouldn't be God sovereignly ruling them at all. Unless I am completely seeing things wrong, if God merely used random sinful choices then it wouldn't seem to let Him move as freely as I see Him doing in Scripture and in creation. He would be bound only to act around all the chaos. This in turn seems to mean that God isnt in control over all the evil events (which I believe He is somehow without being the cause of evil).

So if it is foreknowledge, as you say, then God's will would happen after the counsel of all evil choices.
[/QUOTE]

 

[zrs6v4]

Dr. Walter,

Basically you say that God allows sinful acts by the counsel of His will to bring Him glory. In other words, there are infinite potential sins and works of Satan/evil that can happen but God sovereignly rules over them picking and choosing which ones to allow that are chosen to accomplish His purposes? This is a good point to chew on, Im not sure if I've looked at it this way. thanks

 

[zrs6v4]

Dr. Walter, I really liked what you said so I am going to try to build on it a little to see where it takes us.

You seemed to hit on the secondary cause of God's will.

Applying this to:

1. God's control over those that come to Him in salvation. It seems that this particular work of God's sovereignty falls under His Primary causation and isnt a problem at all.

2. God's control over the death and destruction of life. This doesnt seem to be a problem either because God can give and take away life however He wishes and this isnt necesarily a sin.

3. God's control over people who reject Him. This falls into your view in God allows those who reject them to remain in their sinful blindness without having mercy which isnt deserved in the first place. This does not mean that He didnt offer them forgiveness, but He simply left them in their state fulfill His purposes.

4. God's control over the fall and continual sin of mankind. The fall is a more dificult situation for us to understand because of limited information from God's word. I would say that there was obviously no sin inclination before the fall, but God did allow Satan to enter and tempt them to sin. There had to be some sort of withdrawal of the Spirit from Adam and Eve at the time to allow them to make the decision to sin. As for the continual sin of mankind, God simply as Dr. Walter said, would allow only the works of Satan/Fallen angels/ and evil that fits perfectly according to His will. It is clear that Satan and men could be much worse in this world but God mediates and controls all of there actions be preventing much to happen. This would even apply to the lost because they arent as bad as they could be. God clearly gives them mercy, even though they dont know God, because there are many levels of sin that people are in.

5. Judas and the other 11 disciples. This is the last example I selected to think on. I think this is a great example of how God sovereigly controls things. God gave us an example with Peter and Judas. God allowed Satan to come into Judas for the purpose to betray Jesus and ultimately bring Him to the cross. On the other hand Jesus told Peter that Satan would sift him like wheat, which was allowed temporarily. In Peter's case Jesus prayed for Peter, while in Judas case Jesus allowed Satan to take Judas away to committ a terrible sin. The work that Judas did could have happened to any of the 12 disciples, but God had mercy on 11 and protected them. In Judas case God had no mercy and allowed him to remain lost and to be controlled by Satan for evil.

I do want to say this isnt a completed view, but it seems to be making more sense as to how God works sovereignly and has a purpose in all events. If you follow my thoughts here and it makes sense then what do you think?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, I believe in the secondary causes in regard to the origin of sin and evil and I believe we must make a distinction between God's will of permission and God's willl of pleasure.

God is the primary cause of sin and evil because He knowingly and purposefully created the very mechanism that would bring sin into the world - moral creatures who have freedom of choice. Even those who believe that "foreknowledge of God" is nothing more then prescience, therefore, have to admit that God knowingly created moral beings with freedom of choice that would freely choose to sin and bring all the consequences of sin into the world BEFORE He actually created man and Satan. If they deny this, they deny their own definition of "foreknowledge" and furthermore, make God an ignoramus. Therefore, at the very minimum, He knew it and created them anyway.

However, He also created them RESPONSIBLE for their free moral actions. In addition warned man against making the wrong choice and foretold him of the consequences in advance to that choice. Sin is never the good pleasure of God but it did have God's permission to enter His creation.

Sin and its consquences are now present and active in God's creation by permission from God. Part of God's permissive will for sin to be present and active is in perfect harmony with God's Justice and righteousness. God forewarned Adam and Eve of the consequences of sin and those consequences are judgements upon mankind for their responsible choice to sin. Today, all men continue to sin and the terrible consequences of sin are just judgements upon mankind that they deserve.

However, the very fact that it is God's good pleasure to be merciful toward a chosen people who equally deserve these judgements demonstrates that God sovereignly regulates and controls the severity of these judgements or else He could not "work all things for the good" of those people. Psalm 76:10 declares that this regulatory control over the wicked and their wickedness demonstrates the general mercy of God even toward the wicked by restraining them from the potenial evil they would do if left unchecked and overruling whatever evil they do in working "all things" for the ultimate good of His people in keeping with His sovereign purpose to work all things for His own glory.


Sin and evil are permitted by God but are never the good pleasure of God except when considered in His overall Soverign purpose where all things are worked together for the ultimate good for His people and glory for Himself.

The consequences of sin (war, hate, crime, disease, death and hell) are just judgements of sin and in perfect keeping with the righteousness and justice of God. God would have been perfectly just and righteous to allow these consequences to come upon all men without exception. Moreover, any intervention, delay or restraint of these consequences are a matter of undeserved mercies. Temporal pain and punishments are nothing compared to eternal suffering in the lake of fire and both temporal and eternal miseries of sin are fully justified. Justice does not require God to have mercy upon any sinner much less to save any sinner from the just consequences of sin.

God is perfectly just to do as it pleases Him with all sinners as they justly deserve all the consequences of sin.


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So then it is not him that willeth or him that runneth but of God who sheweth mercy and He can have mercy upon whom He will have mercy and upon whom He will harden in their already sinful state he can harden if it so pleases Him:

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

All the consequences of sin are perfectly just and therefore "good" and righteous and holy. For God to save but one sinner is pure mercy and is an undeserving act of pure grace. If God did choose to save but one sinner, none of the rest would have any just grounds to complain about the distinguishing grace of God upon that one as they are getting exactly what justice demands.

However, when you further consider the aggrevated consequences of sin upon the human heart so that it is willingly ensalved to sin in so much that it refuses to respond to the general mercies and goodness of God and instead hates and refuses to come to any light provided by God because it loves darkness, then such response further hardens them in sin and God is perfectly just to allow them to continue in their love of sin with all of its consequences which are just and righteous. Nothing prevents them from coming to the light but their own enmity toward God and their stubborn resistance to the light.

Can God have mercy on whom He wills and can God harden who he wills? The arminian cannot say yes to either but the Scripture clearly demands the answer is a resoundingly yes:

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Paul is not speaking merely of Jews or the Jewish nation "but also of the Gentiles?" - Rom. 9:24


The fact the scriptures say "it is not him that willeth or him that runneth" and "hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" "and what if God willing to shew his wrath..." demands that God's purpose is inclusive of the elect and non-elect and what he does with each and therefore He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" and "according to His purpose" and is perfectly just in whatever He chooses to do with those who deserve immediate hell.

Dr. Walter, I really liked what you said so I am going to try to build on it a little to see where it takes us.

You seemed to hit on the secondary cause of God's will.

Applying this to:

1. God's control over those that come to Him in salvation. It seems that this particular work of God's sovereignty falls under His Primary causation and isnt a problem at all.

2. God's control over the death and destruction of life. This doesnt seem to be a problem either because God can give and take away life however He wishes and this isnt necesarily a sin.

3. God's control over people who reject Him. This falls into your view in God allows those who reject them to remain in their sinful blindness without having mercy which isnt deserved in the first place. This does not mean that He didnt offer them forgiveness, but He simply left them in their state fulfill His purposes.

4. God's control over the fall and continual sin of mankind. The fall is a more dificult situation for us to understand because of limited information from God's word. I would say that there was obviously no sin inclination before the fall, but God did allow Satan to enter and tempt them to sin. There had to be some sort of withdrawal of the Spirit from Adam and Eve at the time to allow them to make the decision to sin. As for the continual sin of mankind, God simply as Dr. Walter said, would allow only the works of Satan/Fallen angels/ and evil that fits perfectly according to His will. It is clear that Satan and men could be much worse in this world but God mediates and controls all of there actions be preventing much to happen. This would even apply to the lost because they arent as bad as they could be. God clearly gives them mercy, even though they dont know God, because there are many levels of sin that people are in.

5. Judas and the other 11 disciples. This is the last example I selected to think on. I think this is a great example of how God sovereigly controls things. God gave us an example with Peter and Judas. God allowed Satan to come into Judas for the purpose to betray Jesus and ultimately bring Him to the cross. On the other hand Jesus told Peter that Satan would sift him like wheat, which was allowed temporarily. In Peter's case Jesus prayed for Peter, while in Judas case Jesus allowed Satan to take Judas away to committ a terrible sin. The work that Judas did could have happened to any of the 12 disciples, but God had mercy on 11 and protected them. In Judas case God had no mercy and allowed him to remain lost and to be controlled by Satan for evil.

I do want to say this isnt a completed view, but it seems to be making more sense as to how God works sovereignly and has a purpose in all events. If you follow my thoughts here and it makes sense then what do you think?

 

[Winman]

God is the primary cause of sin and evil because He knowingly and purposefully created the very mechanism that would bring sin into the world - moral creatures who have freedom of choice. Even those who believe that "foreknowledge of God" is nothing more then prescience, therefore, have to admit that God knowingly created moral beings with freedom of choice that would freely choose to sin and bring all the consequences of sin into the world BEFORE He actually created man and Satan. If they deny this, they deny their own definition of "foreknowledge" and furthermore, make God an ignoramus. Therefore, at the very minimum, He knew it and created them anyway.

I have tried to explain this with the car analogy. Our cars are designed to go much faster than any known speed limits in order that they be able to cruise or operate normally at posted limits. And the manufacturers know beforehand that some people will exceed the speed limits. However, the driver is in complete control (except for maybe a Toyota :tongue3 and is therefore responsible if they break the law.

Our free will is the same. We could not love God if we did not have free will, it is necessary. However, this same free will that allows us to love God allows us also to disobey and sin. But we are in complete control of ourselves, so we are completely responsible for our actions.

There is no way around it, if God determines and controls every action a man takes, then God is responsible for sin. But if man has a free will to choose to do either good or bad, then only man is responsible for his actions.

You will never see any language whatsoever in the scriptures that does not hold man absolutely accountable for his own actions. The scriptures support free will and man's accountability.

God can allow man free will and still be in control. We see the example of Jonah, God ordered him to go to Nineveh, but Jonah disobeyed and fled from the Lord. However the Lord caused the great storm on the sea and the whale to swallow Jonah, and caused Jonah to testify against Nineveh.

All the consequences of sin are perfectly just and therefore "good" and righteous and holy. For God to save but one sinner is pure mercy and is an undeserving act of pure grace. If God did choose to save but one sinner, none of the rest would have any just grounds to complain about the distinguishing grace of God upon that one as they are getting exactly what justice demands.

This is incorrect, if God saves one sinner but allows others to perish without a just cause, then he is being partial, which God forbids many times in the scriptures. Jesus also said if we are angry or hate someone without cause it is a sin.

God does not choose who will be given everlasting life and who will perish without just cause. And the reason for this choosing is shown in scripture.

James 1:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God chooses those who have faith in him. Those who do not believe him and do not have faith in him make God a liar.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Faith is not a work, the scriptures make that abudantly clear by contrasting faith to works. But faith is a judgment.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Those who have faith in God judge him to be good, merciful, and faithful, those who do not believe judge God as a liar. And this was the unpardonable sin, when those Jews judged the working of the Holy Spirit to be evil.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your logic is illogical. Nobody is denying that God created them to be responsible free agents and as such they are responsible for sin not God. Nobody is charging God with committing their sin or any sin. Your car analogy does not contradict a single iota that I have said until you go beyond the sin and fall of Adam and attempt to apply it to fallen men equally as you apply it to Adam BEFORE His fall. All things are not equal AFTER the fall as BEFORE the fall. Jesus explicitly speaks of FALLEN man when he says "NO MAN CAN COME" demonstrating that the fall invalidated the ability of free will. If it did not, then they could come WITHOUT being drawn.

Your arguments are based upon confusion of the PREFALL versus the POSTFALL of mankind. You jump back and forth like a yo yo. You can't use PREFALL conditions to explain POSTFALL conditions becuase they are not EQUAL.

In speaking of FALLEN mankind, the Bible says that God can have mercy upon whom he wills and can harden whom he wills and still be Just and righteous. However, you respond exactly like Paul's imaginary adversaries and say that makes God unfair:

This is incorrect, if God saves one sinner but allows others to perish without a just cause, then he is being partial, which God forbids many times in the scriptures. Jesus also said if we are angry or hate someone without cause it is a sin.

Justice demands ALL MANKIND suffer the full consequences of sin. Justice can NEVER demand that God save any. Justice can NEVER condemn God for saving some and not others.

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I have tried to explain this with the car analogy. Our cars are designed to go much faster than any known speed limits in order that they be able to cruise or operate normally at posted limits. And the manufacturers know beforehand that some people will exceed the speed limits. However, the driver is in complete control (except for maybe a Toyota :tongue3 and is therefore responsible if they break the law.

Our free will is the same. We could not love God if we did not have free will, it is necessary. However, this same free will that allows us to love God allows us also to disobey and sin. But we are in complete control of ourselves, so we are completely responsible for our actions.

There is no way around it, if God determines and controls every action a man takes, then God is responsible for sin. But if man has a free will to choose to do either good or bad, then only man is responsible for his actions.

You will never see any language whatsoever in the scriptures that does not hold man absolutely accountable for his own actions. The scriptures support free will and man's accountability.

God can allow man free will and still be in control. We see the example of Jonah, God ordered him to go to Nineveh, but Jonah disobeyed and fled from the Lord. However the Lord caused the great storm on the sea and the whale to swallow Jonah, and caused Jonah to testify against Nineveh.



This is incorrect, if God saves one sinner but allows others to perish without a just cause, then he is being partial, which God forbids many times in the scriptures. Jesus also said if we are angry or hate someone without cause it is a sin.

God does not choose who will be given everlasting life and who will perish without just cause. And the reason for this choosing is shown in scripture.

James 1:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God chooses those who have faith in him. Those who do not believe him and do not have faith in him make God a liar.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Faith is not a work, the scriptures make that abudantly clear by contrasting faith to works. But faith is a judgment.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Those who have faith in God judge him to be good, merciful, and faithful, those who do not believe judge God as a liar. And this was the unpardonable sin, when those Jews judged the working of the Holy Spirit to be evil.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

 

[Winman]

Jesus explicitly speaks of FALLEN man when he says "NO MAN CAN COME" demonstrating that the fall invalidated the ability of free will. If it did not, then they could come WITHOUT being drawn.

No man could possibly come to Jesus unless they have heard of Jesus. As I have said many times, you weren't walking around completely ignorant of the gospel and were suddenly regenerated to have this knowledge. If you know the gospel, you either read it in the Bible, or heard someone preach it from the Bible.

You don't get it, Jesus is constantly talking about his word. He is the Word.

Look at John 3 and notice something.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Many people wonder what the word "water" in verse 5 stands for. I personally believe this is speaking of God's word.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

And notice Jesus says of the Spirit in verse 8 that you can hear it. How does a person hear the Holy Spirit? God's Word of course. And this is what Jesus says in John 6.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

God's Word, or Jesus's Word are spirit and they are life. We are born again by receiving or believing God's Word.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus in John 3 says we must be born again to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. And Peter explains how we are born again, by the word of God. But you must receive it or believe it to be born again. And this is what Jesus explains also in the parable of the sower. The seed is the word of God, but you must receive it like the good ground for it to sprout into life.

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Oh! So you correct Christ again. He said "NO MAN CAN COME" and now you restrict it to "NO MAN BUT THOSE WHO HEAR ABOUT CHRIST CAN COME." However, in the same text and the verse following He said that the every "him" that is drawn is the same "him" that will be raised. In verse 45 he said "EVERY MAN" that hath "HEARD" cometh to me. However, you feel the need to correct and qualify Christ's words simply because it contradicts your doctrine.

No man could possibly come to Jesus unless they have heard of Jesus. As I have said many times, you weren't walking around completely ignorant of the gospel and were suddenly regenerated to have this knowledge. If you know the gospel, you either read it in the Bible, or heard someone preach it from the Bible.

You don't get it, Jesus is constantly talking about his word. He is the Word.

Look at John 3 and notice something.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Many people wonder what the word "water" in verse 5 stands for. I personally believe this is speaking of God's word.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

And notice Jesus says of the Spirit in verse 8 that you can hear it. How does a person hear the Holy Spirit? God's Word of course. And this is what Jesus says in John 6.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

God's Word, or Jesus's Word are spirit and they are life. We are born again by receiving or believing God's Word.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus in John 3 says we must be born again to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. And Peter explains how we are born again, by the word of God. But you must receive it or believe it to be born again. And this is what Jesus explains also in the parable of the sower. The seed is the word of God, but you must receive it like the good ground for it to sprout into life.

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.