Do you think there is chance?

[Winman]

Oh! So you correct Christ again. He said "NO MAN CAN COME" and now you restrict it to "NO MAN BUT THOSE WHO HEAR ABOUT CHRIST CAN COME." However, in the same text and the verse following He said that the every "him" that is drawn is the same "him" that will be raised. In verse 45 he said "EVERY MAN" that hath "HEARD" cometh to me. However, you feel the need to correct and qualify Christ's words simply because it contradicts your doctrine.

It is you twisting scripture. How many men does Jesus say he will draw in John 12:32?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If Jesus draws all men to himself, which he clearly said he would do, then all men can come. All have been enabled.

Does John 5:40 say men cannot come, or does it say they will not come?

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus did say that no man can come to him unless drawn, but he also says he will draw all men. Therefore all could come, but some "will not" come.

This is all very simple and a child could understand it. All men are drawn and therefore all can come. The reason they do not come is they are not willing. You do not believe unregenerate man can truly make a free choice. Oh, you will say they have free will, and in the same breath say they are enslaved by their nature which is an illogical contradiction. If they are utterly enslaved by their nature then they do not truly have free will.

But the scriptures clearly say men have true free will.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

It doesn't get any clearer than Leviticus 1:3, God says men have their "own voluntary will". But you would rather believe the false teaching of Augustine and Calvin.

I could list you half a dozen verses showing unregenerate man has the ability to choose God or reject God. Unregenerate man is not utterly enslaved to his own will, man can truly make choices.

In John 5:40 Jesus said men "will not" come to him, he did not say they "could not". You read your presuppositions into this verse.

And John 5:40 proves that even those who do come were not regenerated, because they had to come to have life. But again, you will ignore plain scripture that a child could understand to hold to a man-made doctrine.

 

[GBC Pastor]

I was just thinking and was wondering if anyone here believes in chance or luck?

"I returned and saw under the sun that- The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to men of understanding, nor favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all."- Ecclesiastes 9:11 NKJV

 

[Winman]

Your arguments are based upon confusion of the PREFALL versus the POSTFALL of mankind. You jump back and forth like a yo yo. You can't use PREFALL conditions to explain POSTFALL conditions becuase they are not EQUAL.

You are correct about me here. I was taught that man fell in the garden and that the sin nature was handed down to each of us through Adam. I believed this for many years.

However, I could never find this in the scriptures, in fact, I found the opposite. I found that man is always held responsible for his actions in the scriptures. If man cannot possibly do anything good, then man cannot be held responsible for his actions.

In another post, you and other posters said that you hold traditional beliefs held by the church for many years. That is not so. Until Augustine came along, most of the early church fathers believed unregenerate man had the ability to do both good and evil, and could truly make a choice between the two. For instance, here is what Iranaeus believed:

Book IV Chapter XXXVII.-Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,"597 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God." "But glory and honour," he says, "to every one that doeth good."598 God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it,-some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."599 And, "Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares."600 And, "Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing."601 And again, "The servant who knows his Lord's will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes."602 And, "Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? "603 And again, "But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites."604 All such passages demonstrate the independent will605 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, "All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient; "606 referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect "all things are lawful," God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] "not expedient" pointing out that we "should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,607 for this is not expedient. And again he says, "Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour."608 And, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks."609 And, "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord."610 If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

Continued in next post due to length.

 

[Winman]

Continued from previous post.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, "According to thy faith be it unto thee; "611 thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, "All things are possible to him that believeth; "612 and, "Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee."613 Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, "he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him."614 In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, "How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate."615

6. Those, again, who maintain the opposite to these [`conclusions], do themselves present the Lord as destitute of power, as if, forsooth, He were unable to accomplish what He willed; or, on the other hand, as being ignorant that they were by nature "material," as these men express it, and such as cannot receive His immortality. "But He should not," say they, "have created angels of such a nature that they were capable of transgression, nor men who immediately proved ungrateful towards Him; for they were made rational beings, endowed with the power of examining and judging, and were not [formed] as things irrational or of a [merely] animal nature, which can do nothing of their own will, but are drawn by necessity and compulsion to what is good, in which things there is one mind and one usage, working mechanically in one groove (inflexibiles et sine judicio), who are incapable of being anything else except just what they had been created." But upon this supposition, neither would what is good be grateful to them, nor communion with God be precious, nor would the good be very much to be sought after, which would present itself without their own proper endeavour, care, or study, but would be implanted of its own accord and without their concern. Thus it would come to pass, that their being good would be of no consequence, because they were so by nature rather than by will, and are possessors of good spontaneously, not by choice; and for this reason they would not understand this fact, that good is a comely thing, nor would they take pleasure in it. For how can those who are ignorant of good enjoy it? Or what credit is it to those who have not aimed at it? And what crown is it to those who have not followed in pursuit of it, like those victorious in the contest?

7. On this account, too, did the Lord assert that the kingdom of heaven was the portion of "the violent; "and He says, "The violent take it by force; "616 that is, those who by strength and earnest striving axe on the watch to snatch it away on the moment. On this account also Paul the Apostle says to the Corinthians, "Know ye not, that they who run in a racecourse, do all indeed run, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. Every one also who engages in the contest is temperate in all things: now these men [do it] that they may obtain a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. But I so run, not as uncertainty; I fight, not as One beating the air; but I make my body livid, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, when preaching to others, I may myself be rendered a castaway."617 This able wrestler, therefore, exhorts us to the struggle for immortality, that we may be crowned, and may deem the crown precious, namely, that which is acquired by our struggle, but which does not encircle us of its own accord (sed non ultro coalitam). And the harder we strive, so much is it the more valuable; while so much the more valuable it is, so much the more should we esteem it. And indeed those things axe not esteemed so highly which come spontaneously, as those which are reached by much anxious care. Since, then, this power has been conferred upon us, both the Lord has taught and the apostle has enjoined us the more to love God, that we may reach this [prize] for ourselves by striving after it. For otherwise, no doubt, this our good would be [virtually] irrational, because not the result of trial. Moreover, the faculty of seeing would not appear to be so desirable, unless we had known what a loss it were to be devoid of sight; and health, too, is rendered all the more estimable by an acquaintance with disease; light, also, by contrasting it with darkness; and life with death. Just in the same way is the heavenly kingdom honourable to those who have known the earthly one. But in proportion as it is more honourable, so much the more do we prize it; and if we have prized it more, we shall be the more glorious in the presence of God. The Lord has therefore endured all these things on our behalf, in order that we, having been instructed by means of them all, may be in all respects circumspect for the time to come, and that, having been rationally taught to love God, we may continue in His perfect love: for God has displayed long-suffering in the case of man's apostasy; while man has been instructed by means of it, as also the prophet says, "Thine own apostasy shall heal thee; "618 God thus determining all things beforehand for the bringing of man to perfection, for his edification, and for the revelation of His dispensations, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the Church may be fashioned after the image of His Son, and that man may finally be brought to maturity at some future time, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God.619

So, you see (if you read carefully) that what I believe is not unorthodox at all, and is what many early church fathers believed (I can quote many other church fathers before Augustine if you like).

God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the forbidden fruit, and that is exactly what happened. They were separated from God and hid themselves. They were spiritually dead, but physically alive.

Now why did they hide? I believe they hid because they believed God would kill them physically. Afterall, God had promised they would die "in that day" if they sinned.

But when God called them, they both came to God. They were sinners, they were lost, they were unregenerate, yet they came when God called them. This is trust. This proves that unregenerate man can come to God if God calls to them.

And when they came to God he did not kill them physically. Yes, he cursed women in childbearing, and cursed the ground so that man would have to labor and toil to survive. But there is not one word concerning man's nature. God did not kill them physically that day, in fact he forgave their sin. He killed an innocent animal and clothed them with the skin. This is a picture of Christ who died for us, and his righteousness that is imputed to us when we believe or trust on him.

What I believe is not unorthodox at all, the majority of early church fathers believed man retained free will. It was only after 400 A.D. and Augustine that the idea of Total Depravity or inability became popular.

 

[Cypress]

zrs,
I believe that men and angels interact with each other and creation in true libertarian freedom, for better or worse. God's choices sometimes supersede ours, but for the most part we are free to make our own choices. In other words, there is no blueprint. God is sovereign, in that this is His choice to create a world and beings that operate in this fashion.

 

[franklinmonroe]

"I returned and saw under the sun that- The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to men of understanding, nor favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all."- Ecclesiastes 9:11 NKJV

Indeed, the KJV uses the word "chance" 5 or 6 times I recall. It may be that it is being used merely as a colloquialism ('informal expression').

However, I don't believe in randomness (chance or luck). Scientifically, there does not seem to be such a phenomena. Some events are so complex that our mind cannot calculate the results fast enough so that we say that those events are uncertain or unpredicable. But in fact, they are certain (physics). The flip of a coin for example: if you start with the coin in the same position, and flip it with the same force and angle each time (in other words, eliminate uncontrolled variables producing the same number of rotations) you would get the same result each and every time. The average human cannot control their hands precisely enough to eliminate slight variations and thus it only seems that we get different (and unpatterned) results from the 'same' filpping action. Even computers cannot truly generate numbers at random. There are explanations for every action (ask NASA), it is just that many ordinary events are either complex beyond a complete quantification or it is simply not worth the effort.

Perhaps a demon does pinch a baby to make it cry at the most inopportune moment. But just because I cannot calculate all the reasons does not make the vent a chance happening.

 

[zrs6v4]

I dont think there is any question that all things have a purpose. There are some scriptures that can be taken out of context that seem to imply chance, but I dont think that is the case. I was basically hoping to see some good deep explanations for peoples views. I by no means think that I have arrived but I am deeply confident in God's mysterious working in all events for His greater purpose and glory.

Cypress, are you saying that you do believe in chance. IE events or things happening outside of God's will?

thanks guys

 

[GBC Pastor]

There are some scriptures that can be taken out of context that seem to imply chance, but I dont think that is the case.

How is Ecclesiastes 9:11 taken out of context?


If I pull into an over crowded parking lot in Wal-Mart and I happen to find an open parking spot right at the front was it ordained of God for me to have that spot? Or was it a matter of randomness? Doesn't the rain fall on the just and the unjust alike? Isn't that randomness? Does it in any way make God less sovereign?

 

[franklinmonroe]

How is Ecclesiastes 9:11 taken out of context? ...

This verse has precisely the opposite meaning as you attempt to give it. Your interpretation seems to be that "the swift" may not win the race due to some random chance event or that "the strong" may lose the battle because of an unlucky circumstance. However, what this verse is really teaching is that humans ought not to trust in their own strength; Solomon is telling us that reason alone cannot assure the outcome. Reasonably, young David should not have been able to defeat the combat superior Goliath; but David prevailed. (Was that luck? No!) David rightly gave God the credit (1 Samuel 17:46). Ecclesiastes 9:11 teaches that God is in control of all events. Matthew Henry writes --

2. He resolves all these disappointments into an over-ruling power and providence, the disposals of which to us seem casual, and we call them chance, but really they are according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, here called time, in the language of this book, ch. 3:1; Ps. 31:15. Time and chance happen to them all. A sovereign Providence breaks men’s measures, and blasts their hopes, and teaches them that the way of man is not in himself, but subject to the divine will. We must use means, but not trust to them; if we succeed, we must give God the praise (Ps. 44:3); if we be crossed, we must acquiesce in his will and take our lot. ​

Look at Ecclesiates 3:14,15 (KJV) --

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.
That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.​

Clearly, everything God has decided to do is certain to come to pass; what has been foreordained by God cannot be changed.

If I pull into an over crowded parking lot in Wal-Mart and I happen to find an open parking spot right at the front was it ordained of God for me to have that spot? Or was it a matter of randomness? ...

No, finding the parking space is not random. God put it there at that time. Perhaps that you could kindly let someone else take it; or perhaps so that you would be in the checkout line at the divinly appointed time to witness to some partculiar person. We won't know why.

Doesn't the rain fall on the just and the unjust alike? Isn't that randomness? ...

No, the falling of the rain is not random but it is indescriminate. God has chosen to opperate in this manner; it is a form of His grace and mercy. Some of those lost people may accept Him at a later time. David even complained that evil men seem to prosper greater than righteous men in this life.

Does it in any way make God less sovereign?

Yes (and it would either make God not omnipotent or not omniscient).

 

[GBC Pastor]

So if God chose to allow randomness in His creation that would make God less sovereign? Can't say that I agree with that. And my "interpretation" was not an interpretation at all but a reading of the text. Your quote of Matthew Henry is an interpetation. I completely agree that God is ultimately in control of all things. However, God also gave man free will and that allows for certain degrees of randomness which Scripture seems to bear out. It is always interesting to me that some people must find a way to make Scripture fit their notions of the truth rather than letting Scripture speak for itself. If everything is divinely appointed by God then you open up issues such as God being the author of sin which I am not prepared to do. I don't see how random events occuring in our world make God less sovereign if He chose to create this world in that manner.

 

[GBC Pastor]

No, the falling of the rain is not random but it is indescriminate

Indiscriminate means random by the way. :thumbsup: Which not a single rain drop could be if God is exercising absolute control over all things.

 

[Cypress]

zrs
I believe many things happen outside of God's will or desire, but not beyond limits He sets. If He admonishes you not to do something and you do it anyway then it is against His will or He does not mean what He says. If someone believes that disobedience is according to God's will, I think they should question their interpretation of God's will and reconsider. Why would He prohibit that which He desires? Furthermore, if He determines men's actions, the same question is valid. Why would He ever express regret?

 

[saturneptune]

I was just thinking and was wondering if anyone here believes in chance or luck?

Ten to four they do believe in luck. My signature addresses this question. The Lord certainly controls the events that He needs to carry out His purposes. A lot has been said about the every day decisions we make that seem to have no consequence, like, am I going to order a coke or 7up? However, He knows the number of hairs on our head. ( He does not have to count to high for me.) That strongly suggests to me He is either involved in or knows every decision from the greatest to the least.