Do you understand the Covenant This way?

[Iconoclast]

I apologize in advance for making my comments simple on this subject, but I have always thought of covenant theology as a unified purpose of God from eternity past to glorification. The purpose of the Old Testement is to prepare for the incarnation of Jesus Christ to this world, and the purpose of the New Testement is the revelation of Jesus Christ. To me, it is a single story, with God directing the plot, and a certain outcome. I think the Old and New Testement complement one another, not negate.

Where things really get complicated to me is dispensational theories. This may be similar to covenant in ways, but the emphasis here is different ages, and dealing with man in different ways. In covenant, although dealing with seperate covenants, it seems the Lord is dealing with mankind the same.

This is a subject that I would appreciate any insight on. Can one be one that believes in covenant theology and still be a pre trib, pre mil, or is that limited to dispensational?

They can....but it would be very difficult....maybe historic premill like Spurgeon...... We all must have some kind of Covenant theology as it is central to the revealed purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ's work.

if we have very little...or none...we should direct our thoughts toward this.

I am currently working through Greg Nichols excellent book:
http://www.graceandtruthbooks.com/p...d-and-baptistic-perspective-on-gods-covenants


It is a helpful step by step work.....

 

[agedman]

They can....but it would be very difficult....maybe historic premill like Spurgeon...... We all must have some kind of Covenant theology as it is central to the revealed purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ's work.

I agree.

I am pre-mill, yet hold to a covenant thinking, too.

I find no particular conflict between consideration of how God shows how in any state of existence from Eden to Millennium humankind failed - "no man seeks God;" even when Christ rules the world with a rod of iron and God's will is "done on earth as it is in heaven," humankind will fail.

I view the covenant as a eternal agreement between the God head and revealed to man as one might turn the pages in a will. That there are not "multiple" covenants but one continuous unchanging and unchangeable as God.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree.

I am pre-mill, yet hold to a covenant thinking, too.

I find no particular conflict between consideration of how God shows how in any state of existence from Eden to Millennium humankind failed - "no man seeks God;" even when Christ rules the world with a rod of iron and God's will is "done on earth as it is in heaven," humankind will fail.

I view the covenant as a eternal agreement between the God head and revealed to man as one might turn the pages in a will. That there are not "multiple" covenants but one continuous unchanging and unchangeable as God.

What i liked about the premill system was that at the time.....it seemed to provide answers to all the questions I had....from gen-rev.

When I studied through Hebrews my beliefs in that system were severely challenged. When I worked through Jonathan Edwards The History of Redemption, my eyes were opened to what I had been missing in how all 66 books blend together.
The theology of the Covenants are the main thread....because it is there we we see what is the centerpiece of God's purpose.Christ and His church, God with us to the praise of His glory.
Those who do not search it out neglect a great blessing.

 

[agedman]

What i liked about the premill system was that at the time.....it seemed to provide answers to all the questions I had....from gen-rev.

When I studied through Hebrews my beliefs in that system were severely challenged. When I worked through Jonathan Edwards The History of Redemption, my eyes were opened to what I had been missing in how all 66 books blend together.
The theology of the Covenants are the main thread....because it is there we we see what is the centerpiece of God's purpose.Christ and His church, God with us to the praise of His glory.
Those who do not search it out neglect a great blessing.

I agree.

The only problem(s) with some who adhere strictly to any scheme (in particular the pre-mill and covenant) is that there remain some verses that don't seem to conform. For instance, many of the covenant consider that the church replaced Israel. That isn't true according to Romans 11. The problem with many of the pre-mill is they lack compassionate integrity when dealing with any other scheme and tend to grab any proof text in a dispute.

I do think that there can be a blend of the two in which the covenant is considered binding (for it is really one and not two) but an emerging agreement of the Godhead; yet the work of God expressed through a "dispensational" consideration leading to a pre-mill return of Christ is also not in error.

 

[percho]

Are the elect today elected by covenant and if so what covenant?

 

[agedman]

Are the elect today elected by covenant and if so what covenant?

If one takes The Revelation 17:8 passage literally, then the covenant was by necessity a single covenant established between the God head before the first day of creation which includes the names having been written in the book of life (election).

As the pages of the covenant become revealed to humankind, it might seem to some to be multi-covenantal, but I am not certain the Scriptures completely support such a view without various shifting that isn't necessary when one considers a single covenant from the beginning, which the conditions are revealed to humankind in stages.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

...did not ask them to walk the aisle or raise a hand....but did plant some seed..lol

What!!!! don't you know that another 14 verses of "Just as I Am" would have sealed the deal? OHHHH.....forsooth! I pray that in hell, :tear: they will not raise their eyes, and ask you why you failed to give them the opportunity to receive the free gift of salvation....by doing some simple George Beverley Shea. For SHAME !!

 

[Yeshua1]

If one takes The Revelation 17:8 passage literally, then the covenant was by necessity a single covenant established between the God head before the first day of creation which includes the names having been written in the book of life (election).

As the pages of the covenant become revealed to humankind, it might seem to some to be multi-covenantal, but I am not certain the Scriptures completely support such a view without various shifting that isn't necessary when one considers a single covenant from the beginning, which the conditions are revealed to humankind in stages.

AZren't we though today under the new Covenant though? And where are the so called Covenants between God and one of Works in Bible?

 

[agedman]

AZren't we though today under the new Covenant though? And where are the so called Covenants between God and one of Works in Bible?

I am not certain of your questions, but will attempt to clarify a bit.

The assumption is usually made that God made covenant(s) in the OT and then along came the NT and Christ revoked the old ones and started new one(s).

However, for the sake of shortening the post assume that the covenant were not made with humankind but concerning humankind. Assume that the covenant was actually formed in the pre-creation, in complete, and in which the Godhead agreed. That the covenant was revealed to humankind in stages in which humankind thought were separate but in fact were pages of the same.

Then, there is no "old or new" covenant, but the same covenant in which God does not deviate, and the plan of the ages is actually a single plan spanning "in the beginning" to the final "amen."

 

[Iconoclast]

[--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are the elect today elected by covenant and if so what covenant/QUOTE]

If one takes The Revelation 17:8 passage literally, then the covenant was by necessity a single covenant established between the God head before the first day of creation which includes the names having been written in the book of life (election).

As the pages of the covenant become revealed to humankind, it might seem to some to be multi-covenantal, but I am not certain the Scriptures completely support such a view without various shifting that isn't necessary when one considers a single covenant from the beginning, which the conditions are revealed to humankind in stages.

Yes most speak of this as the Covenant of Redemption,of which the covenant of grace is manifested IN GEN3....then OC/NC.

JN 6..... AND JN 17.....SPEAK OF IT.

 

[percho]

I was kind of going here. I used to have a Sunday School teacher that would often speak of us being a New Covenant church or New Testament Christians ect.

Therefore: Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

By covenant? I believe so.
By the New Covenant? I do not believe so.

Assuming these people God is taking out for his name are added to the church.
How are they added? By the gift of the Holy Spirit. By what covenant? By the covenant that was 430 years prior to the law.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith.

It is the covenant God made with Abraham and his one seed Christ through which the church is built.


BTW as an added side note. If the blessings come through the one seed Jesus Christ then by necessity, "through the faith." above has to be the faith of Jesus Christ.

He received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, then and only then was the gift of the Spirit given us, to sanctify us for his name, the church. The elect.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Rather, salvation is commonly thought of as their making a decision for Christ.

Because, according to the scriptures, God does not save robots. He saves people. And acording to scriptures God calls and draws every person to salvation through Christ. (John,1 1-9) The decision is up to the person.

God does does not make the choice for the sinner . The sinner chooses Christ of refuses Christ. God may or may not give them more then one chance. In my experince most get many oportunities...but it is not guaranteed.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...




Because, according to the scriptures, God does not save robots. He saves people. And acording to scriptures God calls and draws every person to salvation through Christ. (John,1 1-9) The decision is up to the person.

God does does not make the choice for the sinner . The sinner chooses Christ of refuses Christ. God may or may not give them more then one chance. In my experince most get many oportunities...but it is not guaranteed.

AIC...
According to your statement God does not save anyone.
This is the problem with your theory which scripture does not support.

You statement if you look at it honestly is that God--at best-- offers a potential salvation...be He actually does not save anyone.

He in your theory draws ALL Men...somehow....but does not save them ...he gets them close to it....but untimately...He cannot ,or does not do anymore.


man has to do something or add something in your theory. I do not see that as the scriptural teaching at all.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not certain of your questions, but will attempt to clarify a bit.

The assumption is usually made that God made covenant(s) in the OT and then along came the NT and Christ revoked the old ones and started new one(s).

However, for the sake of shortening the post assume that the covenant were not made with humankind but concerning humankind. Assume that the covenant was actually formed in the pre-creation, in complete, and in which the Godhead agreed. That the covenant was revealed to humankind in stages in which humankind thought were separate but in fact were pages of the same.

Then, there is no "old or new" covenant, but the same covenant in which God does not deviate, and the plan of the ages is actually a single plan spanning "in the beginning" to the final "amen."

think that the Bible made it VERY clear that there were 2 seperate Covenants as regarding Gods dealing with people though!

As with the nation of isreal and the jewish peoples was established the Old Covenant, while jesus came and God gave us now a new./better/surer Covenant!

 

[agedman]

think that the Bible made it VERY clear that there were 2 seperate Covenants as regarding Gods dealing with people though!

As with the nation of isreal and the jewish peoples was established the Old Covenant, while jesus came and God gave us now a new./better/surer Covenant!

Van, that is what I was taught and what I considered correct.

But, covenants which are between God and man will ultimately all fail in the agreement for the humanity of man is encased in failure at every point.

The Scriptures state that when man fails, God does not.

So, I got to considering that rather than from a human perspective, where plural covenants are discerned in the Scriptures, perhaps it is from the beginning an agreement of the Godhead where just, as are the Scriptures not in complete until millennium after Eden, a single covenant, in which parts are revealed through the eras, would be a more proper perspective.

In so doing, it would bring unity of purpose to all covenants and also bring into fairly good alignment some schemes that pertain to the messiah and second coming.

I don't consider that I have time left to completely work through the thinking; if someone of skill and discernment might take to the task, it might be well worth the effort.

 

[percho]

think that the Bible made it VERY clear that there were 2 seperate Covenants as regarding Gods dealing with people though!

As with the nation of isreal and the jewish peoples was established the Old Covenant, while jesus came and God gave us now a new./better/surer Covenant!

No. 1 both covenants are said to be made with the exact same people.

 

[percho]

Van, that is what I was taught and what I considered correct.

But, covenants which are between God and man will ultimately all fail in the agreement for the humanity of man is encased in failure at every point.

The Scriptures state that when man fails, God does not.

So, I got to considering that rather than from a human perspective, where plural covenants are discerned in the Scriptures, perhaps it is from the beginning an agreement of the Godhead where just, as are the Scriptures not in complete until millennium after Eden, a single covenant, in which parts are revealed through the eras, would be a more proper perspective.

In so doing, it would bring unity of purpose to all covenants and also bring into fairly good alignment some schemes that pertain to the messiah and second coming.

I don't consider that I have time left to completely work through the thinking; if someone of skill and discernment might take to the task, it might be well worth the effort.

That was true with the old covenant. Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith,

The people said, "All that the Lord has said we will do," concerning the old covenant. They did not do all that the Lord had said. Therefore:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The very same people the old was made with.

The new covenant.

For this the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

There is not even a hint of man doing a thing concerning the new covenant.
Neither is there a hint of man having a thing to do with his new birth.

This new covenant is relative to inheritance into the kingdom of God, the gospel Jesus preached. And; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." It will go into effect after the following; "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

When that above underlined takes place the following will be true.
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And also the following will be absolutely true.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

They will be living by the new covenant.

1 Cor. 15:51 We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
That is the end result of the great salvation spoken of in Hebrews 2:3 relative to what the Lord first spoke of concerning the world to come V5
the kingdom of God.

The Salvation that, grace through the faith, makes available to flesh and blood humans. Through the obedience of Jesus unto death on the cross. the faith; God the Father extended unto him, life from the dead, grace.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

AIC...
According to your statement God does not save anyone.
This is the problem with your theory which scripture does not support.

Its not my theory at all. Its Gods glorious saving gosple.

You statement if you look at it honestly is that God--at best-- offers a potential salvation...

Well, in one sense. yes. Here is what I mean...

Unlike the calvinism, wich has invented a weird, mysterious class of robots, some (the lucky ones) blindly preprogrammed to be saved, while the other robots (the unlucky ones) are preprogrammed for hell ( All of this before any of them were even born), we have the Gosple of Jesus Christ...

Where God, in His great love, desires all to be saved. However, He has given mankind the atribute of "free will". Again, in His great love, He chooses to NOT save people becaus He MADE, or ordained them to blindly come to Him, no..but rather He wants to save the people who LOVE HIM BACK, and WANT to be with Him. He draws them, He gives them light, and they come to Him. And the ones who do not want anything to do with His gosple, He will..tragically...give them what they have asked for.

So, He provides the way to be saved, and God recieves the "whosoever wills"

And His salvation is all of God, and none of us. All we contribute is a miserable sinner, with faith in Christ.

Glory be to God!

but He actually does not save anyone.

His salvation is all atributed to Gods great grace alone.

He in your theory draws ALL Men...somehow....but does not save them ...he gets them close to it....but untimately...He cannot ,or does not do anymore.

There is one and only one who saves. And that is God. alone.

man has to do something or add something in your theory. I do not see that as the scriptural teaching at all.

That is because you have been indocrinated into believeing a theological system that has some good in it...but unfortunetly has some extremely, horribly false teaching in it, regarding how sinners are saved.

Hope this helps

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

Where God, in His great love, desires all to be saved.

And yet,strangely he does not save all in this schemeIn fact he does not save any......they must save themselves by loving God first.

However, He has given mankind the atribute of "free will".

Except of course that this is not taught in scripture anywhere

Again, in His great love, He chooses to NOT save people becaus He MADE, or ordained them to blindly come to Him,

Never read that verse either:laugh:

no..but rather He wants to save the people who LOVE HIM BACK, and WANT to be with Him.

Not according to scripture:
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

sorry AIC.....your dog does not want to hunt:wavey:

He draws them, He gives them light, and they come to Him. And the ones who do not want anything to do with His gosple, He will..tragically...give them what they have asked for.

even if they never hear the gospel???

So, He provides the way to be saved,

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

should actually read.....for he provides a possible salvation for all men...but does not save his own

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...


Well, in one sense. yes. Here is what I mean...

Unlike the calvinism, wich has invented a weird, mysterious class of robots,

You can attempt to disagree, but try and be accurate.No one invented anything...much less robots. Calvinists read and understand election, without explaining it away.

some (the lucky ones) blindly preprogrammed to be saved

,

Again......some the lucky ones???? there is no luck...there is what God has decreed and ordained to come to pass.

blindly preprogrammed to be saved

God does nothing , blindly, by luck ,or by chance

while the other robots (the unlucky ones) are preprogrammed for hell ( All of this before any of them were even born),

I am not sure if you are trying to joke...but I do not joke about these things


we have the Gosple of Jesus Christ...

Where God, in His great love, desires all to be saved. However, He has given mankind the atribute of "free will". Again, in His great love, He chooses to NOT save people becaus He MADE, or ordained them to blindly come to Him, no..but rather He wants to save the people who LOVE HIM BACK, and WANT to be with Him. He draws them, He gives them light, and they come to Him.

Again we have an Adam who did not die in the fall.....just was slightly wounded

And the ones who do not want anything to do with His gosple, He will..tragically...give them what they have asked for.

and many never hear the gospel....

So, He provides the way to be saved, and God recieves the "whosoever wills"

Hebrews 9 says he accomplished redemption....not just made it possible

And His salvation is all of God, and none of us. All we contribute is a miserable sinner, with faith in Christ.

but in reality...all such synergisms by definition...are not all of God.

His salvation is all atributed to Gods great grace alone.

I think when you say that....you mean Jesus went to the cross alone....but as far as salvation.....you still have man having to do something, or add something.

There is one and only one who saves. And that is God. alone.

That is because you have been indocrinated into believeing a theological system that has some good in it...but unfortunetly has some extremely, horribly false teaching in it, regarding how sinners are saved.

I believe because of scripture,and believed it before I ever heard or knew of any system.....I was glad to discover that most of the believing church believed this in times past however:thumbs: