Doctrinal Defintions of Faith

[webdog]

Sorry, you're confused and wrong about this. Go back to the Bible.

If I recall you don't hold to calvinism...but you hold to Lordship Salvation that stems from calvinism? I'm confused?

Christian Temple summarizes the problems:

The belief that one must make Christ Lord in order to be saved, contains, in this writer's opinion, a vast array of errors. Most of the errors appear to stem from two foundations: a desire to see Christians act like Christians, and, in some passage interpretations, poor exegesis.
Perhaps the greatest error in the Lordship Salvation view is the apparent call to discipleship for those who are yet unsaved. If one must believe the Gospel, have faith, and make Christ Lord in order to be saved, this is a condition that must be met by someone who does not yet know what the Lordship of Christ means. This results in a Catch 22 which inevitably leads to eternal death. You must make Christ Lord in order to be saved, but you must first be saved in order to make Christ Lord. As the unregenerate, natural man cannot "receive the things of the Spirit of God" (1Cor 2:14, NKJV) for they are foolishness to him, how can he ever acknowledge the Lordship of Christ?

 

[skypair]

Grace is not frustrated by making Christ Lord of our lives. It is fullfilled. Christ said to Nicademus Ye must be born again. To me that means that sin and the world must no longer be master of out lives but Christ must be Master. To accept grace and live as though nothing has happened is to make a mockery of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. As Paul said in Romans 6:

I want to make a point about LS that I think completely applies and will help you see what webdog is talking about.

LS, in theory, is a "secular government" laid over a spiritual one. LS says our performance in the flesh proves our spiritual condition vis-a-vis Christ. But does it?

Some people practice LS who aren't even saved (web's point). Do you see that? They are, possibly unknowing hypocrites because the practice what John Mac preaches but have never been saved.

Doesn't LS frustrate grace under those circumstances? The LS practicianer is unlikely to seek Christ if the can just be like Him and have enough people say so, right?

See, the reason why we aren't under the "law" anymore is that, like LS, it too was a "secular" law subject to the interpretations of men (Like John Mac). Though God gave secular law with the comandments, by-and-by the people wanted a secular king of their own. He would enforce the spiritual law of the temple on the secular people -- hence, right up until 20 years before Christ, it was Israel that put it's own to death for heresy from the religion. It is a very tempting road to go down --- and every cult leader tries to apply it enroute to his own purposes.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

LS says our performance in the flesh proves our spiritual condition vis-a-vis Christ. But does it?

This concept is reflected in the doctrine of perseverance in Calvinism.

Whether what all has been said is a best reflection of the theology of MacArthur and his intent regarding LS or is too partisan, I will forgo here so that I may focus on this one idea. So my response does not necessarily have MacArthur in view but anyone that might hold to this.

Remember: "Anything that an unsaved person can do is not a possible means or measure of spirituality".

Our salvation is not proven by anything we do, post-salvationally. Our salvation lies in the integrity of God and what He does post-salvationally and what He does is secure our salvation through HIS integrity, not ours.

So, in attempting to set up some scale to measure who is and isn't saved by looking at their life the best they ever will do is set up a pseudo-meritorious system that will do one thing, and that is insure that the line of demarcation that fixes a point of what to obey and when to determine who is saved will always have THAT person on the correct side of the line. That is it.

And you will notice with people who hold this line that with each person the demarcation is interestingly moved. For one person it is this series of important issues, for the next it is this area that most proves salvation...and so on and so on with each person always having a self-aggrandizing system conveniently oriented to self-believed areas of spiritual strength.

Yes, we must obey the Lord. Yes, we must turn from sin. Yes, we must exercise faith and mature.

But on all those occasions and on every other exhortation, command, and directive from our Lord we fail, once or millions of times. So which one of you is a believer?

The one that has trust in Christ as Savior. How can that person know they are still saved from the day they believed? Because of their own integrity? I hope not. But because of the integrity of God that never fails to secure His promises. And the salvation of the Lord is His promise to us that HE keeps.

 

[Amy.G]

It is not our responsibility or right to judge another's salvation. I don't think that is what LS is all about. We use certain measurements (like, is Jesus Lord in our life?) to determine our own salvation.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

It is not our responsibility or right to judge another's salvation. I don't think that is what LS is all about. We use certain measurements (like, is Jesus Lord in our life?) to determine our own salvation.

You have the first part clear as a bell, it is not anyone's right or responsibility to judge another person's salvation and with that I certainly concur.

The second part of your statement has a somewhat ambiguous standard. You state:

We use certain measurements (like, is Jesus Lord in our life?) to determine our own salvation.

You named one measurement but you used the plural, measure(s).

First what are these measurements, specifically?

Secondly if you cannot name them all specifically you have a problem, since you said you used them to determine your own salvation. So if you cannot cite them specifically (remember you used the plural so there must be more than one) you, by your own definition, would not be able to determine whether you are saved.

This line of thinking reminds me of the opposite end of error where people believe you can lose your salvation through certain types or degrees of disobedience. They can't even specifically name the sins or the degree of disobedience that leads to losing their salvation, but apparently there is a magic line God likes to keep mysterious and different for each person.

In the same way you are moving the line from "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" to add other qualifiers that a person must use to measure whether they are saved or not. So what are these OTHER measurements apart from believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior?

 

[Amy.G]

You have the first part clear as a bell, it is not anyone's right or responsibility to judge another person's salvation and with that I certainly concur.

The second part of your statement has a somewhat ambiguous standard. You state:

You named one measurement but you used the plural, measure(s).

First what are these measurements, specifically?

Secondly if you cannot name them all specifically you have a problem, since you said you used them to determine your own salvation. So if you cannot cite them specifically (remember you used the plural so there must be more than one) you, by your own definition, would not be able to determine whether you are saved.

This line of thinking reminds me of the opposite end of error where people believe you can lose your salvation through certain types or degrees of disobedience. They can't even specifically name the sins or the degree of disobedience that leads to losing their salvation, but apparently there is a magic line God likes to keep mysterious and different for each person.

In the same way you are moving the line from "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" to add other qualifiers that a person must use to measure whether they are saved or not. So what are these OTHER measurements apart from believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior?

I like the way the Amplified Bible puts it:

Acts 16
31And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [a]give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well.

This is the kind of belief we must have to be saved, not just an intellectual belief. Once we have been saved, works will follow because we are a new creature in Christ with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In my opinion, the opposite of LS is free grace. Some believe that one can be truly saved and still live like the devil. I do not believe that.

Once we are saved we will have good works (James 2:26), fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), a relationship with God (John 1:12), joy in our salvation (Ps 51:12) There are more but, I think you get the point.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I like the way the Amplified Bible puts it:

Acts 16
31And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [a]give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well.

Why not, instead of adding what is not there, at least stick with what what breathed by God. But your amplification, for all your eagerness only says what believing is, which is trusting Christ and not yourself. There is nothing more there than that. And in fact if anything this contends with the view that there is more. Even the Amplified makes clear that you are to trust him to "HIS KEEPING" which clearly is not some measurement outside of Him for confidence one is saved.

There are more but, I think you get the point.

No, I don't get the point. You stated emphatically:

We use certain measurements (like, is Jesus Lord in our life?) to determine our own salvation.

Again, state the CERTAIN MEASUREMENTS. If they are certain then why is your ambiguous list so UNCERTAIN? You gave a partial list which demonstrates UNCERTAINTY. Either you know exactly the CERTAIN list (which you should since it would apply to all believers) or you don't which sends of ALARMS because now NNE can know this CERTAIN LIST to be CERTAIN they are saved.

The reason you cannot provide a CERTAIN and complete list of measurements you stated you used is because there is no such list to determine one's own salvation outside of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

 

[Amy.G]

Why not, instead of adding what is not there, at least stick with what what breathed by God. But your amplification, for all your eagerness only says what believing is, which is trusting Christ and not yourself. There is nothing more there than that. And in fact if anything this contends with the view that there is more. Even the Amplified makes clear that you are to trust him to "HIS KEEPING" which clearly is not some measurement outside of Him for confidence one is saved.

No, I don't get the point. You stated emphatically:

Again, state the CERTAIN MEASUREMENTS. If they are certain then why is your ambiguous list so UNCERTAIN? You gave a partial list which demonstrates UNCERTAINTY. Either you know exactly the CERTAIN list (which you should since it would apply to all believers) or you don't which sends of ALARMS because now NNE can know this CERTAIN LIST to be CERTAIN they are saved.

The reason you cannot provide a CERTAIN and complete list of measurements you stated you used is because there is no such list to determine one's own salvation outside of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

Well, I told you what I believe. I assumed you also believed that when a person is saved that there will be changes in behavior, thought and purpose which are evidence of salvation. I didn't think I need to give any more examples. And the ones I did give you were from scripture, so I'm not sure why you are disagreeing.

Do you believe a person can be saved and show no outward signs?

 

[npetreley]

Well, I told you what I believe. I assumed you also believed that when a person is saved that there will be changes in behavior, thought and purpose which are evidence of salvation. I didn't think I need to give any more examples. And the ones I did give you were from scripture, so I'm not sure why you are disagreeing.

Do you believe a person can be saved and show no outward signs?

It's a good thing for someone here that the sign isn't "abandoning the penchant for grandiloquent bombast".

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Well, I told you what I believe. I assumed you also believed that when a person is saved that there will be changes in behavior, thought and purpose which are evidence of salvation. I didn't think I need to give any more examples. And the ones I did give you were from scripture, so I'm not sure why you are disagreeing.

Do you believe a person can be saved and show no outward signs?

Well it is obvious you have no CERTAIN measurements. You state you gave some. That isn't CERTAIN, that is a partial list of measurements. A partial list is an uncertain list.

But that aside of course a person can be saved and show no outward signs. But this begs the question. How long is a person allowed to go without showing an outward sign before they have to be declared UNSAVED by themselves? You see the dilemma you are producing with such an arbitrary standard?

Christians go seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years without outward signs. So when is the cut-off? Every time you sin you certainly aren't showing an outward sign. So does that make you unsaved. Oh but you might say, you rebound from that and return to spirituality. Okay. But for whatever time you committed that sin you showed no sign but that of a sinner. So again, how much time is a person permitted to be in sin after salvation and not show an outward sign before they must be declared unsaved by themselves?

 

[Amy.G]

Well it is obvious you have no CERTAIN measurements. You state you gave some. That isn't CERTAIN that is a partial list of measurements. A partial list is an uncertain list.

But that aside of course a person can be saved and show no outward signs. But this begs the question. How long is a person allowed to go without showing an outward sign before they have to be declared UNSAVED? You see the dilemma you are producing with such an arbitrary standard?

Christians go second, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years without outward signs. So when is the cut-off? Every time you sin you certainly aren't showing an outward sign. So does that make you unsaved. Oh but you might say, you rebound from that and return to spirituality. Okay. But for whatever time you committed that sin you showed no sign but that of a sinner. So again, how much time is a person permitted to be in sin after salvation and not show an outward sign before they must be declared unsaved by themselves?

I never used the word certain, you added that.

Just out of curiosity Alex, do you believe in the doctrine of Millenial Exclusion?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I never used the word certain, you added that.

Just out of curiosity Alex, do you believe in the doctrine of Millenial Exclusion?

Wanna bet? Post #24

It is not our responsibility or right to judge another's salvation. I don't think that is what LS is all about. We use certain measurements (like, is Jesus Lord in our life?) to determine our own salvation.

And no I don't believe in ME, it is a ridiculous doctrine.

 

[Amy.G]

Wanna bet? Post #24



And no I don't believe in ME, it is a ridiculous doctrine.

My apologies. I did use the word certain, but not in the context of absolute like you are using it.
I meant more along the lines of specific measurements. Maybe my "southern" vocabulary got in the way.

The reason I asked about ME is because the only people I've seen on this board who believed a person could be saved and show NO outward signs (ever) were ME believers.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

My apologies. I did use the word certain, but not in the context of absolute like you are using it.
I meant more along the lines of specific measurements. Maybe my "southern" vocabulary got in the way.

The reason I asked about ME is because the only people I've seen on this board who believed a person could be saved and show NO outward signs (ever) were ME believers.

I accept your clarification but that now leaves me asking: What specific measurements? If they are specific then they can be enumerated and provided in completion. A partial list would still not be specific.

As far as ME people they are very misguided. They concluded that unfaithful believers will be banished to Hades during the millennium. This highly unorthodox doctrine is based on very unsound hermeneutics.

 

[Amy.G]

I accept your clarification but that now leaves me asking: What specific measurements? If they are specific then they can be enumerated and provided in completion. A partial list would still not be specific.

As far as ME people they are very misguided. They concluded that unfaithful believers will be banished to Hades during the millennium. This highly unorthodox doctrine is based on very unsound hermeneutics.

How many verses of scripture do I have to include before you consider my "list" complete? I have shown several that show that a person who is saved shows outward signs.

Here is another:

1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

How can a person repent and forsake the ways of the world without it showing in their outward behavior?

Can you show scripture that says a person can live their entire life with no change and still be considered saved?

 

[Amy.G]

Here are more:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Have you ever compared something old with something new? There are a lot of differences.


1Jo 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

 

[canadyjd]

But that aside of course a person can be saved and show no outward signs.

Salvation includes a transformed life. How can a truly saved person have no outward signs of that salvation? What, then, would separate them from the rest of the world?

But this begs the question. How long is a person allowed to go without showing an outward sign before they have to be declared UNSAVED by themselves....?

What is missing, I think, in your agrument is the presence of Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. God disciplines those that He loves. It is Holy Spirit that brings us to conviction of our sins and repentance. God's discipline is effective.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

Salvation includes a transformed life. How can a truly saved person have no outward signs of that salvation? What, then, would separate them from the rest of the world? What is missing, I think, in your agrument is the presence of Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. God disciplines those that He loves. It is Holy Spirit that brings us to conviction of our sins and repentance. God's discipline is effective.

peace to youraying:

Good point.

Hbr 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness

 

[canadyjd]

Under general, we learn that man must know, assent to, and appropriate truth before he can be saved. This is the "faith" that I have always insisted is "belief" or "hope" if y'all recall my apologetics on that. That the convicting knowledge of Christ is understood logically and emotionally causing a change in the will of man leading to repentance.

Under this model, you can see where "belief in vain" might be having knowledge and assenting to it without apporpriating it, right?
skypair

Could you please explain to me what "appropriating" the knowledge of Christ looks like?

peace to youraying:

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

How many verses of scripture do I have to include before you consider my "list" complete? I have shown several that show that a person who is saved shows outward signs.

Amy, YOU said the measurements were specific. You tell me what the specific measurements are. The word you are using, specific, means that the measurements are fixed. You said the measurements to determine one is saved are SPECIFIC. You said this. I am asking you for the SPECIFIC measurements. I am the one saying the ONLY measurement is if one has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. YOU are saying there are SPECIFIC measurements: Please tell me them. To provide an incomplete list of these measurements means they are NOT SPECIFIC or you cannot provide it. And in either case you are in trouble since these SPECIFIC measurements are what you are saying one uses to determine themselves if they are saved. I am not the one saying there are SPECIFIC measurements so YOU are the one that has to tell ME how many there are. YOU are saying they are specific. . I am saying there is only one, belief in Christ as Savior.

If you state there is a specific number of Jellybeans in a jar then there is a fixed number of them. If you say a person's arm length is a specific measurement then there will be one measurement. If a person says there are specific procedures to do something then there will be a clear and fix number of procedures clearly delineated. You say there are SPECIFIC measurements for a person to determine they are saved, you make this claim. So tell me these SPECIFIC ones. To leave something out is to deny your own claim that they are SPECIFIC.

How can a person repent and forsake the ways of the world without it showing in their outward behavior?

Can you show scripture that says a person can live their entire life with no change and still be considered saved?

(By change of course we are talking about OUTWARD changes) So tell me, how much change do you require. Again, you are introducing an arbitrary measurement. If the person has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ they are saved. That is THE CHANGE that is necessary for salvation. Outward changes are not required to be saved. The question is what INWARD CHANGE occurs. This is where salvation occurs and is determined.

I am sure you enjoy having your questions answered as I do in debate and so once again I ask you this which you haven't answered, at not yet as I post this response.

But that aside of course a person can be saved and show no outward signs. But this begs the question. How long is a person allowed to go without showing an outward sign before they have to be declared UNSAVED by themselves? You see the dilemma you are producing with such an arbitrary standard?

Christians go seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years without outward signs. So when is the cut-off? Every time you sin you certainly aren't showing an outward sign. So does that make you unsaved. Oh but you might say, you rebound from that and return to spirituality. Okay. But for whatever time you committed that sin you showed no sign but that of a sinner. So again, how much time is a person permitted to be in sin after salvation and not show an outward sign before they must be declared unsaved by themselves?