there have been plenty of people who have posted views about it without getting banned. I’m not interested in how you feel about it. I’m interested in your rational reading you are opposed to it. Make a biblical case against it.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Doctrine, and church membership
- Thread starter ntchristian
- Start date
- Status
there have been plenty of people who have posted views about it without getting banned. I’m not interested in how you feel about it. I’m interested in your rational reading you are opposed to it. Make a biblical case against it.
37818
Well-Known Member
I do. Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." A wage is what is deserved and earned. Ezekiel 18:4, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Now a gift is free to the recipient. In order for God to be Just the wages of sin must be paid. And gifts are paid for by the giver. Roman 5:8, ". . . God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". How can you think this is not PSA? Explain.
I do not fully hold to PSA. I do find it objectively in error that God would in some manner consider justification required Him punishing the Son.
However, the physical suffering of the Savior does render benefits to the believer as Isaiah and other texts state.
When viewing the crucifixion from the perspective of God’s thrown as seen in the Revelation, there is no penal demand of suffering, rather the acknowledgement and approval by the Lamb taking the Scroll and the authority to unroll it.
There’s no picture of penal suffering portrayed in the OT atonements and rather, the atonement sacrifices were to be treated with great regard by the sons of Aaron.
I do think that sometimes the exuberant preachers desire to make much pertaining to the suffering of the Savior, and such suffering should not be diminished.
However, the crucifixion was not something unusual done. It was common practice. The beating and scourging were also common practice. It was not the action, but to who suffered at the evil hands of humanity that brings healing, the forgiveness expressed by the Christ for others is also for us, our iniquities as vile as the thief has been removed, and we have that great peace beyond understanding as a result of the chastisement He bore at humanity’s hands.
Does not the Revelation declare Christ victorious and is now holding the keys of death and hell.
Did not Paul state that death is swallowed up in victory?
I am a Baptist, and I teach a suffering savior punished by the vile humanity, pictured in the parable of the land owner’s son, but a victorious Christ, Honored by the Father, who withdrew support (forsook) that the Son would die, but never abandoned the one in “whom He was well pleased.”
There are some that raise Isaiah as proof of PSA, especially these verses:
However, God being pleased does not make God vengeful upon the Son as some would present PSA. Rather, it demonstrates that God looking upon His beloved Creator, and the sufferings brought upon him by vile humanity will bring honor to the Son and entitle the Son to be the Savior and intercessor.
However, the physical suffering of the Savior does render benefits to the believer as Isaiah and other texts state.
When viewing the crucifixion from the perspective of God’s thrown as seen in the Revelation, there is no penal demand of suffering, rather the acknowledgement and approval by the Lamb taking the Scroll and the authority to unroll it.
There’s no picture of penal suffering portrayed in the OT atonements and rather, the atonement sacrifices were to be treated with great regard by the sons of Aaron.
I do think that sometimes the exuberant preachers desire to make much pertaining to the suffering of the Savior, and such suffering should not be diminished.
However, the crucifixion was not something unusual done. It was common practice. The beating and scourging were also common practice. It was not the action, but to who suffered at the evil hands of humanity that brings healing, the forgiveness expressed by the Christ for others is also for us, our iniquities as vile as the thief has been removed, and we have that great peace beyond understanding as a result of the chastisement He bore at humanity’s hands.
Does not the Revelation declare Christ victorious and is now holding the keys of death and hell.
Did not Paul state that death is swallowed up in victory?
I am a Baptist, and I teach a suffering savior punished by the vile humanity, pictured in the parable of the land owner’s son, but a victorious Christ, Honored by the Father, who withdrew support (forsook) that the Son would die, but never abandoned the one in “whom He was well pleased.”
There are some that raise Isaiah as proof of PSA, especially these verses:
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
ntchristian
Active Member
Okay, how about this: Jesus said that He came to give His life as a ransom for many (original scriptural atonement teaching). Nowhere did He say that He came to pay the penalty for our "sin debt" (atonement theory invented 1500 years later). PSA cannot be found in scripture or the early church.
have you been on this board under a different name in the past?
ntchristian
Active Member
I don't see how you think these verses teach that Jesus was punished and killed instead of us, or that he paid the penalty for our sins. These verses do not say that.
ntchristian
Active Member
No. What makes you ask that? I didn't even know of this forum until I left Orthodoxy and started to explore Baptists and other Protestant groups. I don't know of any Orthodox or ex-Orthodox who would not have a big problem with the Roman Catholic and Protestant atonement theories.
well unfortunately I don’t believe you.
ntchristian
Active Member
Thank you for your post! My views coincide to a great extent with yours, I believe. It is refreshing to find a Baptist with such beliefs. But aren't you in very much a minority in your church on these views? If so, how do you remain there? Maybe your answer will help me to find one.
ntchristian
Active Member
I'm sorry to hear that. Your posts have helped me since I've been here.
I remain a Baptist,, but over the last century, Baptist, as every other group, have drifted.
This is as it should be, because the Scripture tells of a great “falling away” that takes place prior to the Lord’s returning, and although the suffering church still thrives, the church in “free countries” is using mostly feel good worship to replace the Holy Spirit.
There is little rebuke of the Holy Spirit in the modern churches because that Spirit is not recognized but the alternative life style is.
I am old and very grateful to my Savior for His tender mercies.
Perhaps you will find a Bible church that holds to fundamental Baptist policies and will also help you work through some understandings. But I am thankful to see that you are practicing discernment and not just settling for brand.
With regard to fellowship. I personally look for evidence that a person has grown in the fruit of the Spirit as mentioned by Paul, and the steps attaining Love as indicated by Peter. To me these things are important for that person has exercised the Holy Spirit and knows the Savior more then just a pew sitter, and that person is one reliable to help others grow in wisdom and knowledge of the Savior.
Baptists still have the independence to function somewhat without strict obedience to a hierarchy of bishops, …
Baptists are correct in that independence.
Keep looking, and visiting with pastors.
Remain teachable, and humble, being wise in search the Scriptures for answers.
37818
Well-Known Member
Mere denial does not explain. Saying what I have always understood is not there. So what does ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" mean?
[The pagan view of God, that God cannot both be just and merciful.]
What does 1 Peter 3:18, ". . .For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, . . ." mean?
I am not answering for ntchristian, but want to suggest that the verses you offered do not necessarily support PSA exclusively.
If I recall correctly, the early church did not present the PSA thinking, but a victorious Christ presentation.
Please do not assume that I consider that Christ didn’t suffer at the hands of evil people, just as Peter pointed out in his address at Pentecost.
look up propitiation in scripture
He doesn't share an IP address with any other member.
Which?
The way it was used by Paul which he spoke of the actions, tools, furniture…?
Or
The way it was used by John which he spoke concerning the actual blood sprinkled?
Perhaps you can point out exactly when the priests brutalized the atonement sacrifice, or allowed such an animal to even be brought into their presence?
Certainly, the Christ was treated brutally, but so were others. It was common interrogation techniques.
Certainly, the Christ suffered and died on the cross. It was common Roman execution for non-citizens.
What made the atonement special was the same as what made the OT atonement special, except, as Hebrews 9 states, He was offered once and is returning.
The OT did not have atonement sacrifice rising from the dead and returning to bring salvation.
When I was in Germany - in a little town called Zweibruecken, there were two English Speaking Baptist churches. 1) SBC - & 2) Landmark.
I attended the Landmark 2 or 3 times - just could not agee with some of their doctrine. I finally joined the SBC - in that church we probably had members from a dozen different Baptist denominations. Me thinks that the non-SBC let some doctrines "slide" so we could consecrate on the Great Commission.
I attended the Landmark 2 or 3 times - just could not agee with some of their doctrine. I finally joined the SBC - in that church we probably had members from a dozen different Baptist denominations. Me thinks that the non-SBC let some doctrines "slide" so we could consecrate on the Great Commission.
That is ok, as long as the fundamental doctrines were agreed upon, and schism is worked through by agreement in Scripture.
I admit having difficulty agreeing with modernists, and cultish independents who praise moral failures.
The landmark church here seem ok but close doesn’t mean tolerantly appreciative of other views of Scripture principles.
Our pastor there was conservative and the church held to the 5 fundamentals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism
- Status