Doctrine, and church membership

[ntchristian]

Mere denial does not explain. Saying what I have always understood is not there. So what does ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" mean?
[The pagan view of God, that God cannot both be just and merciful.]

What does 1 Peter 3:18, ". . .For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, . . ." mean?

I don't deny what those scriptures plainly and explicitly say. I deny what you say they imply -- that Jesus was punished and killed in our place, paying the penalty for our sin debt. You won't find that said in scripture or believed in the early church.

 

[ntchristian]

I appreciate all the responses, I really do. I didn't want to get into debating atonement views, as I'm sure that has been done extensively here. I am firm in mine, and I assure you that is so because I've studied them all and know exactly what and why I believe. My purpose with this thread is to try to find an answer to my dilemma, by seeing how others would handle being in a similar situation as mine, that is finding oneself in serious disagreement with a major doctrine of the local church and/or denomination that you're apart of or considering being a part of.

This is of the utmost importance to me because I don't want to be without a body of believers to fellowship with.

I ended up in this situation because I used to be Orthodox. There were several such churches near me, where I used to live. Then I moved to a very rural area where there were no Orthodox churches. That's what started my search for a local church to attend, and simultaneously a search of New Testament and early church doctrines and practices. As a result, I became convinced I was no longer Orthodox, even if I had that option near me. But I also knew I could not be Roman Catholic -- came to that conclusion because of my studies. The only option seemed to be some brand of Protestantism. Right now, I am in limbo, and I fear I may not find a church.

 

[1689Dave]

Could you be a member of a church, or financially support a church, with which you had a serious disagreement on one major doctrine?

No. I have several major disagreements with most churches and steer clear of them. I believe the Antichrist papacy still remains in the temple of God, doctrinally.

 

[Lodic]

I must confess that one of the reasons that I joined my local Baptist church is the limited choices I have. It would irritate me if they focused heavily on their views of the End Times, as I hold a completely different view. I am fortunate to attend a church where I can voice my views and nobody minds. Unfortunately, you do not seem to have the same situation. I'm sure you are praying, and you are obviously seeking an answer.

Are there any non-denominational churches in your area? If so, you might visit them to see where they stand. I spent many years in the Army, and I moved a lot. Whenever I checked a church out, I would attend not only the Sunday morning service, but also an evening and mid-week service. If a church had a Sunday School, I would visit it as well. At the very least, you might discover a Bible Study group for fellowship. Hope this helps, Brother.

 

[Revmitchell]

Which?

The way it was used by Paul which he spoke of the actions, tools, furniture…?

Or

The way it was used by John which he spoke concerning the actual blood sprinkled?

Perhaps you can point out exactly when the priests brutalized the atonement sacrifice, or allowed such an animal to even be brought into their presence?

Certainly, the Christ was treated brutally, but so were others. It was common interrogation techniques.

Certainly, the Christ suffered and died on the cross. It was common Roman execution for non-citizens.


What made the atonement special was the same as what made the OT atonement special, except, as Hebrews 9 states, He was offered once and is returning.

The OT did not have atonement sacrifice rising from the dead and returning to bring salvation.

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.


Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.


1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

[ntchristian]

No. I have several major disagreements with most churches and steer clear of them. I believe the Antichrist papacy still remains in the temple of God, doctrinally.

But you have found a Baptist church which you are a member of, yes?

 

[ntchristian]

I must confess that one of the reasons that I joined my local Baptist church is the limited choices I have. It would irritate me if they focused heavily on their views of the End Times, as I hold a completely different view. I am fortunate to attend a church where I can voice my views and nobody minds. Unfortunately, you do not seem to have the same situation. I'm sure you are praying, and you are obviously seeking an answer.

Are there any non-denominational churches in your area? If so, you might visit them to see where they stand. I spent many years in the Army, and I moved a lot. Whenever I checked a church out, I would attend not only the Sunday morning service, but also an evening and mid-week service. If a church had a Sunday School, I would visit it as well. At the very least, you might discover a Bible Study group for fellowship. Hope this helps, Brother.

This is enlightening, and it does help.

There are a few non-denominational churches. They are Pentecostal in doctrine. I believe in all the spiritual gifts mentioned in the New Testament, but I differ in how I view these as compared to traditional Pentecostal views.

 

[1689Dave]

But you have found a Baptist church which you are a member of, yes?

No. There are many styles of Baptists. None in my area I would seek fellowship with. One I would trust is 40 miles away but that sort of time and travel is not an option.

 

[ntchristian]

My grandparents were immigrants to the USA from Eastern Europe. They were Orthodox there and stayed Orthodox after moving here, although surrounded by Roman Catholics and Protestants. They never could get used to how their neighbors viewed God and man. The Eastern mindset is so different from the Western. Judaism and early Christianity were Eastern religions, and when Christianity moved westward, it took on new and unfamiliar views in contrast to the East. That's one thing I have learned in my studies. I don't think these contrasting and very different views of East and West can ever be reconciled, since they view God and man very differently. For me, having been brought up in the West but in an Eastern church, I have to say that I still hold to Eastern views of God and man, since I believe these are the views taught in scripture and the early church.

Maybe an answer for me is some conservative offshoot of Anglicanism, or Methodism, as I have found that these churches do encompass some Eastern features. At least, maybe I wouldn't be in a slim majority on my atonement views. I'm not sure about this. I'll have to look into it further. I might have to compromise in some of my other beliefs, such as baptism and church government, but these probably wouldn't be as crucial to me as the doctrine of atonement. Forgive me -- mostly thinking out loud here. Thanks to everybody for bearing with me on this.

 

[ntchristian]

No. There are many styles of Baptists. None in my area I would seek fellowship with. One I would trust is 40 miles away but that sort of time and travel is not an option.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know what you mean about time and travel limitations, as I find myself in the same boat. So you are not able to attend church then?

 

[1689Dave]

I'm sorry to hear that. I know what you mean about time and travel limitations, as I find myself in the same boat. So you are not able to attend church then?

I don't attend church but spend every day in the word and related study. If you study prominent Catholic doctrines. They are easy to spot in practically every church. To me, this represents the presence of Antichrist linked to the Papacy.

 

[ntchristian]

I don't attend church but spend every day in the word and related study. If you study prominent Catholic doctrines. They are easy to spot in practically every church. To me, this represents the presence of Antichrist linked to the Papacy.

But I see you still identify as a Baptist. That's good, that you know what you are, where you fit in or belong. I don't attend church right now for two reasons: Covid, and because I don't know where I belong, if there is any such place.

 

[1689Dave]

But I see you still identify as a Baptist. That's good, that you know what you are, where you fit in or belong. I don't attend church right now for two reasons: Covid, and because I don't know where I belong, if there is any such place.

Back in the 70's Christ converted me apart from any church involvement. Many churches were pro-war, so I went anywhere they tolerated peace. I bounced around for several years in Pentecostalism. One of those churches was teaching against "Limited Atonement" but the Lord opened my understanding of it as they taught against it. From then on I dropped out of Church and put in a library, mostly Reformed and Baptist. I became a Baptist as a result. Holding to most of the 1689 London Baptist Confession doctrines. In sampling churches from time to time, I found it best to study on my own.

 

[robycop3]

I generally avoid any church that doesn't use Scripture as its final authority in all matters of faith/worship, isn't Sola Scriptura, holds any man-made doctrines of faith/worship,(Which are all false, of course.) or has any man-made rules of lifestyle, actions, or worship procedures.

 

[37818]

. . . want to suggest that the verses you offered do not necessarily support PSA exclusively.

But those Scriptures do explicitly teach PSA even though there are definitively other aspects to the atonement. It is not solely PS that is taught regarding the atonement. That PSA is exclusively taught has never been claimed in Scripture.

 

[37818]

I don't deny what those scriptures plainly and explicitly say. I deny what you say they imply -- that Jesus was punished and killed in our place, paying the penalty for our sin debt. You won't find that said in scripture or believed in the early church.

Then you, it would seem, deny the gospel that I believe. Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 etc. Isaiah 53:6, 1 Peter 3:18, etc. John 19:28 before John 19:30. Isaiah 53:9-12. etc etc etc.

 

[ntchristian]

Then you, it would seem, deny the gospel that I believe. Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 etc. Isaiah 53:6, 1 Peter 3:18, etc. John 19:28 before John 19:30. Isaiah 53:9-12. etc etc etc.

I don't know. I do know that I deny PSA, among other Western atonement doctrines.

 

[37818]

PSA cannot be found in scripture or the early church.

The NT is what the true first century churches taught. 1 Peter 3:18, ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, . . ." is PSA. Isaiah 53:6, ". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all . . . " is PSA. Romans 5:8, ". . . Christ died for us . . . " is do to PSA. One Scripture is sufficient to understand this one truth of the atonement. As there are others also believed and are true.

 

[agedman]

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.


Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.


1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

And these verses are showing PSA as valid?

They fit more perfectly in the victorious Christ followed by the early believers’ view.

 

[37818]

I do know that I deny PSA, among other Western atonement doctrines.

The Apostle explains that the lost lack the gospel in some way, 2 Corinthians 4:3, ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . how that Christ died for our sins . . . ." What would you explian as to what that means? That a lost person might know God and have eternal life.