Doctrine of SANCTIFICATION

[DHK]

HP: Enlighten the reader DHK as to what this ‘entire sanctification’ you speak of entails or to where it was defined in this thread. I must have missed that post(s). The OP spoke about ‘sanctification’ only as I remember, and said nothing of entire sanctification or what that might mean to differing groups or individuals.

The OP:

As a child I attended a Nazarene Church and I remember that they taught that sanctification was obtained in like manner as salvation. After Christ came into your life sometime later if not immediately you "went back to the alter" and asked that the carnal nature ("the ole man") be remove from you and afterwards you would be free from sinning. This was referred to as a Second Definite Work of Grace. I do not remember their teachings on Eternal Security, falling from Grace or perseverance of The Saints.
My question; is there any present day mainline churches or otherwise that teach this?

The bolding is mine. The key phrase is "free from sinning," as he said. That is what the poster said: the Nazarene Church taught (or teaches) that one can reach a state of "entire sanctification" or a state where one does not sin any longer. They also refer to is as a second work of grace as he refers to it. It is right there in the OP, and is also explained in some of the posts that follow.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

While DHK is digging in the dusty archives to find something to accuse me of, are there any others that might take a shot at the questions I asked DHK in post #16?

Tell us of your salvation experience. Were you made sinless, in a present sense, at salvation? Were you sanctified, set apart clean and holy at salvation, or were you still the same old sinner when you left the alter as you were when you knelt down? Were all your sins washed away, were you white as snow, was your heart pure as the driven snow, or were you still carrying your sins on your back as you left the alter?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The bolding is mine. The key phrase is "free from sinning," as he said. That is what the poster said: the Nazarene Church taught (or teaches) that one can reach a state of "entire sanctification" or a state where one does not sin any longer. They also refer to is as a second work of grace as he refers to it. It is right there in the OP, and is also explained in some of the posts that follow.

HP: Are you saying that such is the belief or statement of faith of the Nazarene Church in reality, either then or now? Here again is the statement in the OP.

“immediately you "went back to the alter" and asked that the carnal nature ("the ole man") be remove from you and afterwards you would be free from sinning.”

HP: Is this a doctrinal statement of the Nazarenes, or his impression of what this ‘sanctification’ they spoke of consisted of in the eyes of that one pastor, or could the possibility exist he did not understand that which was in reality being taught and or what the official doctrine of the Nazarene Church was at that time? Just wondering. You seem to be confident that you know the facts. Share them with the list.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can anyone on this list show from any manual of the Nazarene Church that they ever taught that one was ever freed from the possibility of future sin or sinning subsequently to becoming an entirely sanctified believer?

 

[DHK]

Can anyone on this list show from any manual of the Nazarene Church that they ever taught that one was ever freed from the possibility of future sin or sinning subsequently to becoming an entirely sanctified believer?

13. We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.
It is wrought by the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.
Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.
This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as "Christian perfection," "perfect love," "heart purity," "the baptism with the Holy Spirit," "the fullness of the blessing," and "Christian holiness."

http://www.nazarene.org/ministries/administration/visitorcenter/articles/display.aspx


Do they believe in eternal security?

We believe that all persons, though in the possession of the experience of regeneration and entire sanctification, may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless they repent of their sins, be hopelessly and eternally lost.

The answer is obvious.
They are clearly in error concerning these doctrines.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Do they believe in eternal security?
Quote:
We believe that all persons, though in the possession of the experience of regeneration and entire sanctification, may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless they repent of their sins, be hopelessly and eternally lost.

The answer is obvious.
They are clearly in error concerning these doctrines.

HP: This thread is about sanctification, not eternal security as I recall.

The portion you quote from in no wise explains or defines entire sanctification from their perspective does it? It does however dispel the myths that have been suggested on this thread that the Nazarenes taught that entire sanctification keeps one from the possibility of sinning, does it not? Does not the quote you give prove clearly that they teach a sanctified believer can indeed sin?

 

[DHK]

HP: This thread is about sanctification, not eternal security as I recall.

The portion you quote from in no wise explains or defines entire sanctification from their perspective does it? It does however dispel the myths that have been suggested on this thread that the Nazarenes taught that entire sanctification keeps one from the possibility of sinning, does it not? Does not the quote you give prove clearly that they teach a sanctified believer can indeed sin?

Try again.

13. We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I see no problem harmonizing these two statements at all.

 

[DHK]

I see no problem harmonizing these two statements at all.

Entire sanctification is sinless perfection. The Nazarene who believes in entire sanctification and has reached that state cannot sin. If he does sin, then he has apostatized; in other words he no longer is in a state of entire sanctification. Don't you see the logic here. A person who is "entirely sanctified" cannot sin, or else he wouldn't be entirely sanctified, right?

Most carry on self-righteous lives, not committing any hideous sin, and counting other "smaller sins" as "mistakes." Thus they cover up sins and say that they haven't sinned for ten, fifteen years, etc., not willing to admit that those "mistakes" are just as grievous in God's sight as murder or adultery.
If you read their webpage carefully, even that part is explained.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote: DHK:
13. We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

HP: Certainly I do not agree with that position entirely, for as you well know I do not believe in original sin as they do, and I do not believe any in this life are free from the depravity that sin brings via the sensibilities. But my point is that they do not believe that one cannot sin who has been entirely sanctified.

Now I will NOT speak for the Nazarenes, but 'as I understand them' they are simply pointing to a state, attainable in this life by the help of the Holy Spirit, to live a consistent holy life before God in this present world. If that was not a clear possibility and viable hope of every believer, one could not believe Scriptures many promises and admonitions.
. Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”……just to quopte a few.

If being preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord is not a state of ‘entire sanctification’ being lived out in this world by the sanctified believer, pray tell us what it is speaking of?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Entire sanctification is sinless perfection. The Nazarene who believes in entire sanctification and has reached that state cannot sin. If he does sin, then he has apostatized; in other words he no longer is in a state of entire sanctification. Don't you see the logic here. A person who is "entirely sanctified" cannot sin, or else he wouldn't be entirely sanctified, right?

HP: OK. In essence you are right here as I understand you and them. We could say that one ‘ceases to be’ a sanctified believer when he willingly sins, and as such must repent and turn back to God, trusting once again for the heart purity that he once had. Still in common parlance it could be said, as I hear them saying, that one once sanctified holy can indeed turn from that state and sin. It is NOT a state, as I hear some trying to make it out, that it is impossible for one who is sanctified, to turn from that sanctification and sin. While in that state they could be rightfully said to be living above sin, or free from sin by the help promised by God to sustain them IF they will consistently yield their wills to God in obedience. Even some OT saints walked such a life according to Scripture. Certainly the illustrations should be clear enough by now not to have to go back over the list. Enoch would be the first I can remember being such a man and having walked a pure and holy walk before God.

DHK: Most carry on self-righteous lives, not committing any hideous sin, and counting other "smaller sins" as "mistakes." Thus they cover up sins and say that they haven't sinned for ten, fifteen years, etc., not willing to admit that those "mistakes" are just as grievous in God's sight as murder or adultery.
If you read their webpage carefully, even that part is explained.

HP: The question is not whether or not some are deceived, for many are deceived as to their salvation as well. Because some are deceived, or even many are deceived as to their salvation, does NOT prove that others are Not deceived and are truly saved. I see the same being true concerning entire sanctification.

 

[DHK]

HP: Certainly I do not agree with that position entirely, for as you well know I do not believe in original sin as they do, and I do not believe any in this life are free from the depravity that sin brings via the sensibilities. But my point is that they do not believe that one cannot sin who has been entirely sanctified.

Their statement of faith has an entire section devoted to "entire sanctification."
You are just giving your opinion.

Now I will NOT speak for the Nazarenes,

Then why are you?

but 'as I understand them' they are simply pointing to a state, attainable in this life by the help of the Holy Spirit, to live a consistent holy life before God in this present world. If that was not a clear possibility and viable hope of every believer, one could not believe Scriptures many promises and admonitions.

And, you, having taken the position of their spokesperson, clearly do not understand what they believe. They believe that they can attain a position of sinless perfection. However your position is that you just want to argue for the sake of argument. And for me, this debate is now closed. Go to half a dozen of their websites and find out for yourselves. This foolish: I am right/ No I am right argumentation is not for me. I am done.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: They believe that they can attain a position of sinless perfection.

HP: Here you go again, making accusations without first defining what you mean by 'sinless perfection,' and place words in their mouths that so far, nor in my studies, they use to define their doctrine of sanctification.

I might know a little something about their doctrines, but that does not make me a spokesman nor am I defending their position entirely as I stated. I first gave my heart to the Lord in a Nazarene church, and spent several years there as a young child and young man, and have many friends that still are in attendance. I was able to witness the stable and consistent holy lives of many of their followers and owe a debt of gratitude to their examples of charity and piety and holy walk with God. May God bless the Nazarenes even though I cannot be part of their ranks for obvious doctrinal disagreements.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: So I ask you again DHK, were all your sins that were past covered by the blood in total or were they not? Were you or were you not saved to the uttermost at salvation? Was your heart made ‘white as snow’ or was that in reality not so?

HP: Why is it in debates when simple straight forward questions are asked that they often seem to be avoided like the plague? We are dealing with the issue of sanctification and I am trying to get the list in tune with the notion that sanctification is indeed thought of in differing senses.

Let me make a bold statement to spur thought. I would say that unless one is sanctified, in the sense of being made pure and free from ALL sin at salvation, (sins that are past) i.e., sanctified ‘in a sense,’ one has never been saved. Either all our sins that are past have been washed away and behold ALL things made new at that moment or we still are in our sins. That is indeed ‘sinless perfection’ again ‘in a sense’ at the moment of salvation is it not? If not why not?

 

[nodak]

Nazarenes do NOT teach that after entire sanctification one CANNOT sin.

I've never known one to claim they have never sinned after it.

I have known, and believe they teach, that one can ask God to give them a heart that desires not to sin and receive that. And once that happens, they are enabled not to sin----that is, at each instance of temptation they are able to choose not to sin. No guarantee they will choose aright.

It is the point where they seek that "new wanter." As in, I can (it is possible to) sin all I want, but with a new "wanter" I just don't wanta.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Nodak: Nazarenes do NOT teach that after entire sanctification one CANNOT sin.

I've never known one to claim they have never sinned after it.

I have known, and believe they teach, that one can ask God to give them a heart that desires not to sin and receive that. And once that happens, they are enabled not to sin----that is, at each instance of temptation they are able to choose not to sin. No guarantee they will choose aright.

It is the point where they seek that "new wanter." As in, I can (it is possible to) sin all I want, but with a new "wanter" I just don't wanta.

HP: I believe you are right on target concerning the Nazarenes, at least the old line Nazarenes. :thumbs:

God has promised and is well able to change the desires of the heart resulting in a consistent walk before Him, if we will but first believe His Word, trust in Him to perform it, and obey. God can and will sanctify the hearts of the believers completely just as Scripture affirms. 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[DHK]

Nazarenes do NOT teach that after entire sanctification one CANNOT sin.

I've never known one to claim they have never sinned after it.

I only go by what I have read on this post, my own experience, and also by what I read in their own statement of faith. Am I wrong on all three accounts?

Post #2
I was saved in a "Church of Christ in Christian Union". This doctrine of sanctification was one of the main reasons I left. It is still present in Nazare and CCCU churches.

Post #3
In the late 60's we had a local preacher that claimed he couldn't sin.

I personally have met people that have said: "Oh, I haven't sinned in the in the past 13 years." That, my friend, is sinless perfection.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I personally have met people that have said: "Oh, I haven't sinned in the in the past 13 years." That, my friend, is sinless perfection.

HP: So how can you say that this is sinless perfection?? If he sinned in the14th year by some chance, again according to your logic he could have never been perfect because if he was perfect he would not, yea ‘could not’ have sinned. Due to the fact he now has sinned in year 14 it is living proof that he was never perfect in the first place nor could have possibly been according to the way I understand your logic. If there ever is a possibility of one sinning in the future it would to preclude the idea that one could be certain of entire sanctification at this point in time due to some unknown in the future. Is that not precisely the logic you have been using? If not, is it possible to be entirely sanctified for even a brief moment, trusting completely in Christ for heart purity and cleansing, regardless of any possibility in the future that one might sin again? If not, tell us what sin there is in ones heart that it too great for God to provide a remedy for? What stain of sin runs so deep that God cannot cleanse and purify it by faith? What temptation is so strong that God cannot or will not provide an escape for if one will but avail themselves to His provision?

 

[DHK]

HP: So how can you say that this is sinless perfection?? If he sinned in the14th year by some chance, again according to your logic he could have never been perfect because if he was perfect he would not, yea ‘could not’ have sinned. Due to the fact he now has sinned in year 14 it is living proof that he was never perfect in the first place

How about it is living proof that he lied when he made the statement to me in the first place.
There is not a just man on earth who doeth good and sinneth not.
The Bible declares that we sin. In fact we sin every day.
To deny this fact is foolish. How many others do you want to put into the category of "fools"?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: In fact we sin every day.

HP: ‘By thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.’ If that is your testimony so be it, but you have no right to lower the Biblical standard of holiness unto the Lord lived out by multitudes of others that with and by the help of the Lord do truthfully testify that they do not sin every day.

Show us in or by the Word of God that we all sin every day. I can show you many scriptural examples that are at direct antipodes with that statement.