Doctrine of Sinless Perfection

I think the following scripture might have something to say to answer your questions:

1 John 5:16-18

Hope this helps.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Romans 7:15-17 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Here are my answers to your interesting questions:
1. Yes, I still sin --'miss the mark'
2. Hard to say, since I was saved at a very young age. I do seem to sin less and less each year. (Sorry, I couldn't answer that one with a yes or no.)
3. There is a lot of faulty wiring in my head to rewire--the renewing of my mind will take a lifetime.
4. If I hang on to a sin, unrepentant, it diminishes my relationship with Him. If I earnestly desire to be rid of a sin, it can 'work together for good' to draw me closer as I seek deliverance from it. And a repentant spirit works to produce humility and sympathy for others struggling with sin.
5. Sin would not effect my utimate salvation. However, persisting in sin sure slows down the process and makes it a whole lot more painful. And a person who considers themselves a Christian and yet feels no pain, remorse or guilt from sin, ought to have their spiritual pulse checked. It's not that their heart has stopped--it may have never been started.

My 2 cents. Hope that helps.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Romans 7:14-25 is a description of an unregenerate Jew who is striving on his own strength without the ministry of the Holy Spirit to keep the Law of Moses but finding the doing thereof to be impossible. This unregenerate Jew is described by Paul as being “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.” Some would have us to ignore the fact that the present tense “I” is rhetorical and have us to believe that Paul, after he was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, was “sold into bondage to sin” and was practicing the very evil that he did not want to do,

Rom. 719. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

making him a very much worse sinner than he was before he was saved. This view is absolutely preposterous. Indeed, Paul wrote of himself,

Phil. 3:2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

1 Tim. 1: 8. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9. realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10. and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11. according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
12. I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,
13. even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;
14. and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

Paul says it himself! He did not succumb to the temptation to do those things that he hated and knew were wrong; the sins that Paul committed before he was saved were sins of “ignorance.” How could anyone think that after Paul got saved, he became a much worse sinner than he was before? Perhaps that happened to you, but that didn’t happen to me, and I don’t believe that it happened to the Apostle Paul.”

• Paul told us in Roman 6:3 “that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?”

• Paul told us in Rom. 7:4 that we “were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.”

• Paul wrote of himself in Gal. 2:20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Whom do you this day choose to believe, the Apostle Paul—or those who say that all Christians are “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.”


As for 1 John 1:8 – 10:

8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

In order to understand 1 John, it helps a little bit to be familiar with the theology of the recipients of this letter. However, that is a long and complicate subject you shall have to study for yourself. However, there can be no doubt but what the sins spoken of in vv. 8 & 10 are sins that are entirely and exclusively in past time and that have been repented of, atoned for and completely forgiven. When one continues to read this epistle, we see that John wrote,

1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(All Scriptures: NASB, 1995)

 

Christians can and do commit sin, here is a common one:

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

HankD

 

I did not quote only Romans 6, but a number of other passages in the Bible that teach that Christ has redeemed us from the power of sin. And I did not post my personal beliefs regarding any of the various doctrines of sinless perfection. I simply quoted passages from the Scriptures. Here are those passages again, along with some others:

Matt. 1:21. "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

John 1:29. The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Acts 3:26. "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

Acts 5:31. "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13. and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26. so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27. that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Col. 1:19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Tit 2:11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12. instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13. looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14. who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Heb 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27. who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

1John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:1. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2. and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3. By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5. but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6. the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 3:5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Rev. 1:5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--

 

In order for ANY interpretation of the Bible to be true, it is NECESSARY that it be in harmony with ALL of the FACTS. The doctrine of eternal security is not in harmony with most of the facts and it is in direct conflict with many of them. The doctrine of conditional security, however, is in harmony with all of the facts.

The doctrine of eternal security was neither taught nor refuted for 1500 years, proving for a fact that the doctrine was unknown for 1500 years and invented in the 16th century. For the doctrine of eternal security to be a correct view of the Scriptures, one of two things would be ABSOLTELY NECESSARY:

1. The Bible was so poorly worded that the doctrine of eternal security was totally obscured for 1500 years, and predominately obscured for another 500 years.

Or:

2. Every Bible scholar, pastor, and Christian layman prior to the 16th century was so very bereft of both intelligence and spiritual discernment that none of them could understand the Bible, and since then the large majority of Bible scholars, pastors, and Christian laymen have continued to be so very bereft of both intelligence and spiritual discernment that none of them could understand the Bible either.

The doctrine of conditional security was widely and uniformly taught by the Early Church Fathers. During the following 1100 years in which the Roman Catholic Church dominated Christian theology, we do not find anyone arguing against the doctrine of conditional security nor do we find the Roman Catholic Church defending that doctrine against anyone. Just like the Trinity and the deity of Christ, it was expressly taught by the Roman Catholic Church without any opposition from dissenting Christians.

You yourself have continued to insist that no one can take your salvation away from you, an argument that no one is denying, but you have not posted any argument in support of your view that, upon being saved, a Christian looses his ability to choose whom he will serve and whom he will live with. I have posted many passages from the Bible that expressly teach that, upon being saved, a Christian retains his ability to choose whom he will serve and whom he will live with, and, without explaining why they don’t teach that, you simply say that they don’t teach what they were universe believed to teach for 1500 years. You have posted that Heb. 6:4-6,

4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

is not describing Christians even though the language of that passage is used in the Bible exclusively for those who are born-again Christians.

If the Bible was so poorly worded that the doctrine of eternal security was totally obscured for 1500 years, and predominately obscured for another 500 years, the only rational conclusion is that the Bible is NOT the inspired Word of God, but a compilation of works by authors with poor communication skills. Therefore, the doctrine of OSAS not only negates the severe warnings in the Bible against apostasy; it also negates the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible.

 

Well, gosh...I was raised in church that believed that once we're saved we won't sin anymore;...and, therefore that if a chuch member sins, they weren't really saved in the first placed...and, therefore, if they aren't saved we should "exclude" them from the congregation, the denomination, and the body of Christ altogether.

Even as a child I figured out that the idea that a chuch member won't sin to be so prideful as to be sin in itself.

Of course formal exclusion was fairly common..so we remained a very small denomination...

 

Thank you for sharing your personal experience, but miscellaneous anecdotes from recent church history have no bearing whatsoever on the correct exegesis and exposition of the Scriptures.

 

Jesus Christ has been teaching it now for almost 2000 years.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

HankD

 

UZThD wrote,

All of the passages that I quoted above explicitly teach that Christians are not, contrary to the belief of some Baptists and other Christians, in bondage to sin. Christians can either receive by faith all that Christ did for them on the cross, or they can reject some of it. If they reject the fact that Christ freed them from bondage to sin, my observation is that they will be in bondage to some form of sin or another.

I seriously doubt that anyone reading this thread is familiar with the Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection as outlined by Orton Wiley. I also seriously doubt that anyone reading this thread is familiar with the Church of God (Cleveland Tennessee) doctrine of sinless perfection and how and why it differs markedly from the Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection. The other variations of the doctrine of sinless perfection are virtually for certain foreign to everyone in this thread. However, freedom from bondage to sin is a key element to all of the variations of the doctrine of sinless perfection with which I am familiar.

The Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection as outlined by Orton Wiley is in conflict with the historical teaching of Romans 6, a chapter about which there is comparatively little disagreement among conservative and moderate Christians. My personal view of Romans 6 is harmonious with the historical interpretation (although I did formulate my view of Romans 6 a few years before I studied the history of the interpretation of that passage). Therefore, my position regarding the Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection as outlined by Orton Wiley is that it is a seriously flawed doctrine.

 

Craigbythesea: "In order for ANY interpretation of the Bible to be true, it is NECESSARY that it be in harmony with ALL of the FACTS. The doctrine of eternal security is not in harmony with most of the facts and it is in direct conflict with many of them. The doctrine of conditional security, however, is in harmony with all of the facts."

Please define "Doctrine of Eternal Security" that makes your statement true.
Please define "Doctrine of Conditional Security" that makes your statement
true. Thank you.

Which doctrine is working in 1 John 2:1?
1 John 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
My little children, these things write I vnto you, that ye sinne not.
And if any man sinne, we haue an Aduocate with the Father,
Iesus Christ the righteous:

Which doctrine is working in 1 John 3:6?
1 John 3:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
Whosoeuer abideth in him, sinneth not:
whosoeuer sinneth, hath not seene him, neither knowen him.

Actually, i've allowed these threads to go on and on and nobody has
adequately defined these terms yet (though Brother HankD gets close).

The Doctrine of Eternal Security - the Bible teaching that once
Jesus saves a person, Jesus keeps them saved forever for all eternity

The Doctrine of Conditional Security - the un-Biblical teaching
that God throws his unruly children into eternal hell fire
(majority when they renounce Christ OR (minority when
they oops too much.

 

All of the passages that I quoted above explicitly teach that Christians are not, contrary to the belief of some Baptists and other Christians, in bondage to sin. Christians can either receive by faith all that Christ did for them on the cross, or they can reject some of it. If they reject the fact that Christ freed them from bondage to sin, my observation is that they will be in bondage to some form of sin or another.

===

I think I agree with this, but "not being in bondage to sin" is not the equivalent of having "sinless perfection."

===

I seriously doubt that anyone reading this thread is familiar with the Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection as outlined by Orton Wiley. I also seriously doubt that anyone reading this thread is familiar with the Church of God (Cleveland Tennessee) doctrine of sinless perfection and how and why it differs markedly from the Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection.


===

I think that it is best for the theological student to be exposed to varied primary sources which teach somewhat different views than his own. I really don't see how one could feel well-grounded on a particular tenet unless he worked through contrary views on that belief. There are far too much prejudgement and unfounded dogmatism, even on this Board,and NO denomination has the whole truth, IMO!

So, I suggest that all serious theologians who are Baptistic read such as Arminius in his remonstrance against Calvinism and Wiley or Miley in their definitions of and argumentations for "sinless perfection."

You'll have to point out for me the marked difference between C of God and Nazarene on this subject of Entire Sanctification. They seem similar to me. I have read Bynum (isn't he C of God? If not, I'll apologize) who teaches ,like Wiley, that entire sanctification is a "second blessing."(375) And he teaches, like Wiley, that it is instantaneous.( 382)And he teaches, like Wiley, that it is co-incidental with "HS baptism."(377) And he teaches, like Wiley, that it results in "salvation from the indwelling of sin" (374) and "the absence of the effects of depravity" and "entire cleansing from depravity." (390) So, Wiley (Nazarene) and Bynum (C. of God??) seem very much alike.

===


The other variations of the doctrine of sinless perfection are virtually for certain foreign to everyone in this thread. However, freedom from bondage to sin is a key element to all of the variations of the doctrine of sinless perfection with which I am familiar.

===

Again, IMO, it is too bad that other views are not read by serious students.

Again, "not being bound to", I think, is not equivalent to "being perfectly free from." I suppose we'd be wrong to think that the post-Pentecostal Peter was "bound to sin." Yet he did not seem entirely free from it as he wavered in courage before the representatives from James according to Paul in Gal 1 and perhaps by that exemplified erroneous doctrine .

===

The Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection as outlined by Orton Wiley is in conflict with the historical teaching of Romans 6, a chapter about which there is comparatively little disagreement among conservative and moderate Christians.

===


Oh, I think that there is very much disagreement re Rom 6!

===


My personal view of Romans 6 is harmonious with the historical interpretation (although I did formulate my view of Romans 6 a few years before I studied the history of the interpretation of that passage). Therefore, my position regarding the Church of the Nazarene doctrine of sinless perfection as outlined by Orton Wiley is that it is a seriously flawed doctrine.

===

That somewhat qualifies your thinking. thanks.

BTW, in regard to your assertion that eternal security was not taught by the early church have you read Augustine on the subject?

[ May 06, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]

 

Brother, I believe all here would agree with you that we are, in Christ, now free from the bondage of sin. We are just not entirely rid of the flesh. This is why I must daily pick up my cross, to continue the process of crucifying the flesh. We are pressing on towards the Prize that we have assurance, through Christ, of attaining--- Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:12-14

We cannot get rid of sin by simply defining it away as something a Christian is no longer capable of---and therefore if we sin we must not be (or are no longer) Christians. This is a logical fallicy.

We are dead to sin. We are no longer without hope, without power over sin. I was lost. Now I have a guide leading me out of the woods. I am not yet out of the woods, but I know my Guide knows the Way and will not fail me. I am no longer lost.

God is the God of All Truth, not just the Truth of the Bible. So, I would ask anyone claiming sinless perfection, in this life:
What does the Holy Spirit, within you, tell you---does it not still convict you of 'missing the mark' of His Perfect Love? Or do you now feel 'justified' in all you do?

 

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

I started to answer this question by question - then it occurred to me, Paul addressed all of this in his writings, why do we need to restate what Paul stated so well?

You will continue to be tempted and your flesh will be weak. When you focus on God, and strive to be near God, He gives you the power to resist those temptations. On the days when you tune God out, your sinful nature will get the upper hand. If you are saved, God will call you back into His loving arms. If you don't turn back into His loving arms - you never really knew Him.

 

Hi Texas

Paul's meaning on many things, so "obvious" to some , of course, are nevertheless debated. That is why I think the issue of "entire sanctification" deserves a discussion as much as other topics do. As for me I know something of my baseness and something of Christ's righteousness.

One difference between some Wesleyan Arminians and me, as I understand it, is that they (some WA's)perceive personal righteousness as something "of" us whereas I tend more to think of our righteousness as the righteousness of Christ.