Doctrine of Sinless Perfection

UZThD wrote,

No, it is not, and I did not say or imply that it is.

 

UZThD wrote,

I do not have the time right now to go into this in detail. The essential difference is that the Church of God believes in three distinct works of grace:

1. Salvation
2. Baptism in the Holy Spirit
3. Instantaneous and entire sanctification

The Church of the Nazarene believes in only two distinct works of grace:

1. Salvation
2. Instantaneous and entire sanctification

From the Nazarene perspective, instantaneous and entire sanctification is inseparable from the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. “Since entire sanctification if effected by the baptism in the Spirit, it likewise has a twofold aspect—the cleansing from sin and the full devotement to God.” Wiley, vol. II, p. 324. Additional passages can be cited.

 

No, it is not, and I did not say or imply that it is.

</font>[/QUOTE]Now we're getting somewhere, maybe! I sure thought that's what you were saying. Ie: the Christian must attain sinless perfection.

Karen

 

Kiffen,

You have taken this verse completely out of context. John is not writing that Christians have sin in their lives, but rather he is teaching his first century readers that sin is not a false concept (as this particular 1st century group believed), but a reality in the world and in the life of everyone who has not been born again through faith in Christ. John did not believe that there is sin in the lives of those who have truly been born again,

1 John 3:3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

Craig,

How Did I take it out of context? I just simply quoted it with no commentary.

Actually John is addressing in 1 John a early gnostic heresy. He is not believing his Christian readers taught that sin is a false concept but is warning them of false teachers who do propogate that teaching and who profess sinlessness and to be Christians. The gnostics taught that the body is evil so go on and enjoy sin in your body but they taught the spirit is separate from the body and therefore cannot sin.

John is making it clear this is wrong and is writing that a true Believer will not live in a state of Sin (lawlessness). A Believer will not practice lawlessness (Live as if there is no God).

John is not addressing Christians who are struggling with sin in their lives but is addressing those who are living lawless in sin like there is no God yet profess a relationship with Jesus Christ. 1 John 3:1-10 which you just quoted bears that out.

A Christian practice righteousness and is the mark of a believer. A Unbeliever practices sin or lives lawless. The New Hampshire Baptist Confession 1833 says regarding Believers
that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors

One cannot get sinless perfection out of 1 John. That teaching has it's roots in the Pelagian heresy. One can clearly see John is speaking of living lawless in sin with no remorse or repentance.

John makes it clear about lawless professors
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

Among Baptist laymen, Philippians 3:12 -14 is one of the most commonly misunderstood passages in the Bible. They quote it, out of context, from their favorite translation and ignore both the context and the Greek text. Let’s look first at the context:

Phil. 3:8. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9. and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11. in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14. I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
16. however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.
(NASB, 1995—my emphasis in bold type)

 

Now let’s consider the crucial part of the Greek text. The English words, “already become perfect” found in v. 12 are the translation of one Greek word, τετελειωμαι . In Luke 13:32, Jesus uses the same Greek word regarding himself, speaking of his future resurrection,

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. (KJV)

Luke 13:32. And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.' (NASB, 1995)

When we examine the context of Phil. 3:12-14, and consider the Greek text from which our translations were made, we see that Paul is writing in Phil. 3:12 that he has not yet obtained the resurrection from the dead, nor yet has he already been resurrected from the dead, but he is pressing on toward that goal. There is no mention here of the process of sanctification or sinless perfection. The subject here is that of pressing on to the ultimate goal of all Christians, being resurrected from the dead and spending eternity with Christ.

 

Kiffen wrote,

You quoted ONE verse from a five chapter document,

1 John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Verse 8, taken together with the immediately following verse,

1 John 1: 9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

proves that your interpretation is wrong. Jesus “is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” There is absolutely NO SIN in anyone who has been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness

John is NOT addressing an early form of Gnosticism; he is addressing a group of believers in Christ who are entangled in it.

John is making it clear that sin is a reality and that these people had sinned and that Jesus died in their place for their sins. And let’s not play games with the word “sin” here.

The precise spiritual condition of the Christians to whom John is writing is not certain. They had obviously heard some form of the Gospel and believed it. John addresses them as “My little children” and he is admonishing them as a father, yet at the same time he writes to them, “if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” At least you and I agree that John is not writing in this epistle that sin is an ordinary part of the life of a Christian.

However, of the born-again Christian, John writes,

1 John 3: 9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

You can squirt as much water on these words as you may like, but you can NOT water them down to say anything other than what they actually say,

1 John 3: 9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

Actually, I prefer the NASB from which you quoted.

In context, Paul is previously discussing circumcision and telling them, that if you want to talk 'righteousness', he can claim "according (the) righteousness in (the) law being blameless" (I'll use word by word from the Greek translation) He then goes onto say that he considers all that rubbish "in order that Christ I might gain and be found in him, not having my righteousness the (one) of law but the (one) through faith of (in) Christ the of God righteousness [based] on faith..." and then he goes onto describe other things he wishes to attain as part of the whole package--the power of His resurrection, fellowship in his sufferings, being conformed to His death.

"Not that already I received or already been perfected" v.12 and "Brothers, I myself not yet reckon to have laid hold;" v.13

I do agree that perfected is probably referring to the perfection of the body--since, as you pointed out it is the related to the words used by Jesus in reference to His resurrection. But, as to what he is claiming he is has not yet received, or that to which he is straining so hard to gain --that "prize of the above calling of God in Christ Jesus" we can not be so certain. Obviously the resurrection of the body is the ultimate Prize. The verb 'I received' was translated in one version as referring to multiple things (all this), in another as referring to one thing (it). The object(s) to which it refers is not real clear. Earlier he is speaking of the righteousness through Christ-could part of what he is wishing to receive is to be like Him, in all ways? Yes, as Christians, Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us through His blood--and we now have his sinless nature alongside the flesh. But does that necessarily mean sinlessness in unperfected bodies that still struggle with the flesh?
Since, in Christ, who is Eternal, I can say I am saved (a done deal) but as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:18 & 2 Corinthians 2:15, I am also "being saved". Being made like Him requires the 'renewing of your minds'--as in a process. But in Christ, it is a done deal and to an eternal God , in some sense, can be said to already be complete.

Looking at all of Paul's writings, I ask, if Christians do not sin, why is Paul having to spend so much time instructing and addressing the churches on various matters? How could these people who had received wonderous gifts of the Spirit still be in need of so much counsel and correction if Christians do not sin? Looking at the big picture, all of scripture, (and all of life, for that matter)the truth appears to say over and over that the only sinless 'unperfected' human being to walk this earth is Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I agree with you entirely that these things must be looked into deeply and we cannot just quote scriptures back and forth in support of our positions. To 1 John 3:9, about Christians not practicing sin, I could refer you back to 1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin we have an advocate who speaks in our defense--Jesus Christ" Here's a short discussion on exegeting 1 John 3:9 by a more scholarly mind than mine: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2004-October/031738.html

Taking scripture out of context we can prove just about anything. And I admit I have been sloppy many times and just taken scritures at face value without looking deeper, simply quoting them to prove a point. Thank you for making me look deeper into this one.

I am sure you can find some points of weakness in my arguements, here. But I ask again, does the evidence of our eyes and minds (yes, they can be decieved--but that doesn't make them useless. God gave them to us to use.) More importantly, does the Holy Spirit within us, really tell us that we are like Him, in all ways, on this earth? If there are sinless Christians walking around and they are the only ones going to Heaven, than the gate is much narrower than even most Believers ever imagined!

This is not just an academic, theological debate---it has very serious implications for either side. I can see how not realizing that, as a Christian, God expects me to be sinless would have very serious consequences for me. Do those professing sinlessness realize how detrimental an effect their belief would be on God's process of perfecting them, if they thought they were no longer in need of it?

Bottom Line: The important thing here is not which of us is right but what is right. We must seek Truth no matter what. To seek Truth is to seek Him.

 

No, it is not, and I did not say or imply that it is.

</font>[/QUOTE]Now we're getting somewhere, maybe! I sure thought that's what you were saying. Ie: the Christian must attain sinless perfection.

Karen </font>[/QUOTE]Then again, from your succeeding posts, maybe I did not misunderstand. Craig, IMO, you enjoy being unclear so that you can tell whoever is responding that he doesn't understand what you mean.

Karen

 

One other thing to consider--why does Paul keep using terms like racing to win, pressing on to reach a goal, etc....?
Why would he use terms like this to refer to attaining the Resurrection of the body? As far as I know, being resurrected requires absolutely no effort on our part.
However, the process of sanctification, the submission of our will to His, does require effort on our part--the effort it takes to say no to the flesh and yield to the moving of the Holy Spirit within us.

Which of these two things seems most likely that for which we are pressing on, striving, racing to reach?

 

The one born of God cannot commit sin.

Other scriptures calls this one the new man and we are to "put off" the old man and "put on" the new man.

In Ephesians 4 there is a clear choice: put off the old man, and put on the new man or one will "give place to the devil" and grieve the Spirit.

In other places the practicing of the deeds of the "old man" (and it's consequence) by the Christian is called living after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh (sarx), ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit (Pneuma) do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

As new born babes, the flesh is present and active in us and we are to mortify it.

The Corinthian Christians were called "carnal" (sarkikois), fleshy, lagging behind, continuing in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Some were so given over to the flesh that they died physically as a consequence:

1 corinthians 11
30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

There is a clear choice and provisions for overcoming for "babes" in Christ.

That provision is to actively and presently judge ourselves, acknowledging out sins, yielding our minds to the Word of God through the Spirit of God or be chastised even to the point of physical death.

HankD

 

The Corinthians weren't the only ones corrected for sin by Paul.

Obviously, we are in agreement that all the verses quoted are true. We just have a serious difference of understanding what they mean.

And, as I said in an earlier post, those who persist in sin, need to get a serious spiritual exam to determine whether they are actually alive or dead in Christ.

Since I don't know how much more growing I have to do to be made entirely like Him, I guess someone could make the argument that, relatively speaking, I am still a babe in Christ. All I know is that He has brought me a long, long way. As I once heard someone say: "I ain't what I wanna be, I ain't what I ought be, I ain't what I'm gonna be---but PRAISE THE LORD, I ain't what I used to be!"

We could argue and argue to the Lord returns on this one. Only the Holy Spirit can bring those in error on this to correct understanding. We should always be in prayer that He will reveal His full Truth to all of us and pray, earnestly, for those we really do believe are in error.

 

No, it is not, and I did not say or imply that it is.

</font>[/QUOTE]===


Yes, I know, you didn't SAY it. Still I think you implied it. If someone asks the question, " Anyone believe in sinless perfection?" And you, eg, quote "Be ye perfect" ,without qualification, explanation or comment, then, it seems to me that you ARE implying something. I think when doing theology clarity and openess are valuable not vagarity and esoterica.

 

Yes, I quoted one verse BUT i did it with no commentary. You however take vs. 9 out of context in that it contradicts your view

1 John 1:8-9
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


Amen! One who claims to be without Sin is a liar but we are to confess our sins daily unto God. If a believer is sinless then vs. 9 is irrelevant since why would he or she ever need to confess sins.

Actually he is addressing Christians to reject such gnostic teachings that are entering in the church through false teachers.

You are correct he is making it clear that sin is a reality BUT you are wrong if you are implying he is referring to individual sins. The verses you quoted in 1 John 3 affirms he is addressing the Gnostic heresy that one can live lawless and be without sin and claim to be a Christian.

Actually Craig you are the one watering down the text. A true believer does not practice sin is the context NOT that if Deacon Bob hits his thumb with a hammer and then says a dirty word, he is destined to eternal fire. He is referring to believers whose whole character is that of practicing sin or living lawless like there is no God. Note how these translations translate 1 John 3:9

The natural rendering then is John is NOT referring to single sins or even referring to believers struggling with certain sins in their lives BUT he is addressing the Gnostic heresy that one can live lawless lives (Practice sin) and still profess to be a Christian.

 

Craigbythesea: "The subject here is that of pressing on to the ultimate goal of all Christians, being resurrected from the dead and spending eternity with Christ."

Alright!!! you understand Philippians 3:12-14.

But you do not understand 1 John 3:9-10 (KJV1611 Edition):

9 Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede
remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.
:10 In this are the children of God knowen, and the children
of the deuil: whosoeuer doeth not righteousnesse,
is not of God, neither he that loueth not his brother.

Please note that you understood Philippians 3:12-14 when you put
it in it's context.
Here is the context for 1 John 3:9-10 - 1 John Chapters 1 through 5.

Please understand 1 John 3:9-10 in light of Philippians 3:12-14
which you understand.

Ed's rule of Thumb about the Bible:
If you find a passage you don't understand - live by
the passages you do understand.

Here is some of the context of 1 John 3:9-10
to wit, 1 John 1:8-10 (KJV1611 Edition):

8 If we say that we haue no sinne, we deceiue our selues,
and trueth is not in vs.
9 If we acknowledge our sinnes, he is faithfull and iust,
to forgiue vs our sinnes, and to clense vs from all vnrighteousnes.
10 If wee say we haue not sinned, wee make him a liar,
and his word is not in vs.

Recall your understanding of 1 John 3:9-10 must not conflict with
your understanding of 1 John 1:8-10.

 

Kiffen in regards to 1 John 3:9-10:
"He is referring to believers whose whole character is that of practicing sin or living lawless like there is no God."

Kiffen: "The natural rendering then is John is NOT referring to single sins or even referring to believers struggling with certain sins in their lives BUT he is addressing the Gnostic heresy that one can live lawless lives (Practice sin) and still profess to be a Christian."

Amen, Brother Kiffen -- Preach it!

I councel during invitations
with more Christians who need to remember
1 John 1:9 than those who are having problems
being perfect as in 1 John 2:9-10

 

Among Baptist laymen, Philippians 3:12 -14 is one of the most commonly misunderstood passages in the Bible. They quote it, out of context, from their favorite translation and ignore both the context and the Greek text.


===

I guess in addition to Baptist laypersons, some scholars apt at Greek ,including Baptist scholars , also misunderstand as they see Paul's words in the passage as including the topic of moral uprightness in this life. [ eg, AT Robertson, who taught Greek, Word Pictures, 4:454,455 ; Hawthorne, WBC, 43:153; Kent, EBC, 11:142; Chrysostom ,whose language was Greek, Homily 11 on Philippians]. So, it's not at all clear to me that the passage cannot not have, even if scholarship and Greek are our criteria, sanctification in this life as one of its referents and that the "perfect" there Paul disclaims cannot refer to the lack of moral completeness while on earth.

But, then, I've often been very wrong.