Doctrine of Sinless Perfection

Amen Bro. Ed

 

Actually, I prefer the NASB from which you quoted.

In context, Paul is previously discussing circumcision and telling them, that if you want to talk 'righteousness', he can claim "according (the) righteousness in (the) law being blameless" (I'll use word by word from the Greek translation) He then goes onto say that he considers all that rubbish "in order that Christ I might gain and be found in him, not having my righteousness the (one) of law but the (one) through faith of (in) Christ the of God righteousness [based] on faith..." and then he goes onto describe other things he wishes to attain as part of the whole package--the power of His resurrection, fellowship in his sufferings, being conformed to His death.

"Not that already I received or already been perfected" v.12 and "Brothers, I myself not yet reckon to have laid hold;" v.13

I do agree that perfected is probably referring to the perfection of the body--since, as you pointed out it is the related to the words used by Jesus in reference to His resurrection. But, as to what he is claiming he is has not yet received, or that to which he is straining so hard to gain --that "prize of the above calling of God in Christ Jesus" we can not be so certain. Obviously the resurrection of the body is the ultimate Prize. The verb 'I received' was translated in one version as referring to multiple things (all this), in another as referring to one thing (it). The object(s) to which it refers is not real clear. Earlier he is speaking of the righteousness through Christ-could part of what he is wishing to receive is to be like Him, in all ways? Yes, as Christians, Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us through His blood--and we now have his sinless nature alongside the flesh. But does that necessarily mean sinlessness in unperfected bodies that still struggle with the flesh?
Since, in Christ, who is Eternal, I can say I am saved (a done deal) but as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:18 & 2 Corinthians 2:15, I am also "being saved". Being made like Him requires the 'renewing of your minds'--as in a process. But in Christ, it is a done deal and to an eternal God , in some sense, can be said to already be complete.

Looking at all of Paul's writings, I ask, if Christians do not sin, why is Paul having to spend so much time instructing and addressing the churches on various matters? How could these people who had received wonderous gifts of the Spirit still be in need of so much counsel and correction if Christians do not sin? Looking at the big picture, all of scripture, (and all of life, for that matter)the truth appears to say over and over that the only sinless 'unperfected' human being to walk this earth is Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I agree with you entirely that these things must be looked into deeply and we cannot just quote scriptures back and forth in support of our positions. To 1 John 3:9, about Christians not practicing sin, I could refer you back to 1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin we have an advocate who speaks in our defense--Jesus Christ" Here's a short discussion on exegeting 1 John 3:9 by a more scholarly mind than mine: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2004-October/031738.html

Taking scripture out of context we can prove just about anything. And I admit I have been sloppy many times and just taken scritures at face value without looking deeper, simply quoting them to prove a point. Thank you for making me look deeper into this one.

I am sure you can find some points of weakness in my arguements, here. But I ask again, does the evidence of our eyes and minds (yes, they can be decieved--but that doesn't make them useless. God gave them to us to use.) More importantly, does the Holy Spirit within us, really tell us that we are like Him, in all ways, on this earth? If there are sinless Christians walking around and they are the only ones going to Heaven, than the gate is much narrower than even most Believers ever imagined!

This is not just an academic, theological debate---it has very serious implications for either side. I can see how not realizing that, as a Christian, God expects me to be sinless would have very serious consequences for me. Do those professing sinlessness realize how detrimental an effect their belief would be on God's process of perfecting them, if they thought they were no longer in need of it?

Bottom Line: The important thing here is not which of us is right but what is right. We must seek Truth no matter what. To seek Truth is to seek Him. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for this exceptionally well thought-out post! It is certainly a pleasure to see fellow Baptists honestly and fairly digging into the Bible to learn what it really says. And except for one relatively small detail, I mostly agree with the opinions that you expressed here. That one detail is found in these words from your post,

The English word “flesh” is a translation of the Greek word sarx and Paul used it as the antitheses of the Spirit or the spiritually controlled man, that is, of the natural man, even when speaking of Christ,

Rom. 1:1. Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2. which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3. concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
4. who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, (NASB, 1995, my emphasis in bold type)

When Paul is simply speaking of the physical body, he use the Greek word soma. Paul’s perspective is that our soma is present with us, but that our sarx is dead, having been crucified with Christ.* However, the crucifixion of the flesh is a matter of faith, and when Christians take their eyes off of Jesus, their faith weakens and the flesh is revitalized. A man who is walking in the Spirit can NOT sin.

Gal. 5:16. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

*I know that I have over simplified this—compare Gal. 2:20 where the dichotomy is not complete—but Gal. 2:20 can be best understood taking into consideration Paul’s concept of the sarx being the natural man who is subdued by the Spirit to the point that the propensity toward sin is dead.


I encourage you to continue your study of this matter, and to continue to share with others what you learn. I find this subject very edifying and very helpful in my Christian walk, and I enjoy studying it and I hope to understand it more accurately as I continue to study it.

 

I believe that you are interpreting Paul from the point of view of once saved, always saved, a point of view that did not come into focus until the 16th century. From Paul’s point of view, only those who finish the race successfully obtain the prize of the resurrection.

1 Cor. 9:27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Cor. 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Col. 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

1 Tim. 4:1. But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2. by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3. men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

2 Tim 4:1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
(NASB, 1995)

 

Amen! Very well said!

 

Amen! We are in total agreement on these issues!

 

No, it is not, and I did not say or imply that it is.

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Yes, I know, you didn't SAY it. Still I think you implied it. If someone asks the question, " Anyone believe in sinless perfection?" And you, eg, quote "Be ye perfect" ,without qualification, explanation or comment, then, it seems to me that you ARE implying something. I think when doing theology clarity and openess are valuable not vagarity and esoterica. </font>[/QUOTE]You have inferred what I did not imply. My purpose was not to argue for any doctrine sinless perfection, but to bring to the table some of the passages in the Bible that are often interpreted to teach sinless perfection, and to stimulate thought and dialogue on the basis of these scriptures so that we might all learn something in the process and grow in Christ together. And it appears to me that my purpose is being accomplished.

 

If that is what John meant, why didn't he say so? Why did he write instead,

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

When I hit my thumb with a hammer, explicatives do not come into my mind, and I do not believe that they come into the mind of any other true child of God who is walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

 

Yes, as unfortunate as it may be, even some scholars have missed Paul's point here. For a radically confused view of this passage, see the commentary on Philippians by Gerald F. Hawthorne, a professor of Greek at Wheaton College.

Regarding the rest of your post, and the posts of others to whom I have not yet replied, I am presently out of time.

 

Craigbythesea: "When I hit my thumb with a hammer, explicatives do not come
into my mind, and I do not believe that they come into the mind of any
other true child of God who is walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh."

Once i was sitting at a computer next to the workdesk of the
local Missionary Athiest. He was supposed to be resetting an
IC (integrated ciruit) onto a board. Instead he stuck under
a thumbnail a couple of the legs - OUCH!! But he said:
"God D***". I look him in the eye and say: "Somedays everybody
needs God"

 

That is what John meant. He is dealing with the gnostic heresy that one can live lawless in the flesh and proclaim to be a Christian. To say it is dealing with Deacon Bob hitting his thumb with a hammer and cussing or Pastor Jim being mad at his wife for not cooking supper or Sister Nancy's struggle with smoking 3 packs a day takes 1 John out of context. John is speaking of professing believers who are given over to a complete lifestyle of sin and practicing it with no remorse or repentance.

The teaching of sinless perfection is an old heresy that has it's fundamental roots in Pelagianism that has a weak view of original sin.

 

Amen! If it were not for our salvation through the atonement of Christ, we would all be sinners and proving that fact by our sins.

 

Kiffen wrote,

Let’s let John speak for himself,

John:3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

Kiffen wrote,

Kiffen, this statement is absolutely and entirely false. The teaching of sinless perfection has its fundamental roots in the Bible and the very earliest of the Church Fathers—long before Pelagius was even conceived in the womb. I have already posted a number of verses in the Bible that expressly say that Christians are not in bondage to sin. Now let’s look at some verses in the Bible that teach entire sanctification:

Rom. 12:1. Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 Cor. 7:1. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (KJV)

Heb. 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (ASV)

Now let’s look at a few of quotes from very early Church Fathers that teach entire sanctification:

Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote,

“If any man be in these [faith, hope, and charity], he has fulfilled the law of righteousness, for he that has love is far from every sin.”

Ignatius is reported have spoken these last words before he died, "I thank Thee, Lord, that Thou hast vouchsafed to honor me with a perfect love toward Thee."

Clement of Rome wrote,

“those who have been perfected in love, through the grace of God, attain to the place of the godly in the fellowship of those who in all ages have served the glory of God in perfectness.”

Now let’s look at a quote from Augustine, the Church Father who battled against Pelagius and his heresies,

“No one should dare to say that God cannot destroy the original sin in the members, and make Himself so present to the soul, that the old nature being entirely abolished, a life should be lived below as life will be lived in the eternal contemplation of Him above.”

“H. Orton Wiley wrote on page 449 of vol. II of his Christian Theology,
The doctrine of Christian perfection has come down to us from apostolic days as a sacred and uninterrupted tradition through all the Christian centuries. The different ages have been frequently characterized by a difference in terminology, which the student of history must be quick to discern, but in no age has this glorious truth suffered eclipse. "The essentials of the doctrine have been preserved, though with many minor differences, from the beginning, clearly discernible through all the ascetic, fanatical, ultra-mystical, semi-Pelagian veils which have obscured them" (POPE, “Compend. Chr. Th., III, p. 61). We shall trace the subject briefly through the following periods, in order to furnish a historical basis for further discussion.”

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)

 

If you are familiar with the literature on Philippians, you know that most of the commentators see one thing here rather than two. However, they do not agree as to what that one thing is. From my point of view the resurrection is in view and sanctification is not.

12. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Paul is writing that he has not yet obtained the prize of the resurrection or been resurrected.

 

I checked out the usage of the conjuction η and it Mt 5:17; 5:36 ; 15:4 ;Mk 4:21; 1 Cor 11:4; and, Gal 1:8, and in each of these cases two separate things are clearly in view, but the conjunction itself does not make them different or indicate that they are different. I also read the Greek text of Phil. 2:3 and the conjuction η is not used in that verse.

Yes, it suggests two alternatives, and clearly two alternatives are in view in v. 12—obtaining the resurrection and being resurrected, i.e., two perspectives of one event.

 

I checked out the usage of the conjuction η and it Mt 5:17; 5:36 ; 15:4 ;Mk 4:21; 1 Cor 11:4; and, Gal 1:8, and in each of these cases two separate things are clearly in view, but the conjunction itself does not make them different or indicate that they are different. I also read the Greek text of Phil. 2:3 and the conjuction η is not used in that verse.

Yes, it suggests two alternatives, and clearly two alternatives are in view in v. 12—obtaining the resurrection and being resurrected, i.e., two perspectives of one event.

 

No, it is not, and I did not say or imply that it is.

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Yes, I know, you didn't SAY it. Still I think you implied it. If someone asks the question, " Anyone believe in sinless perfection?" And you, eg, quote "Be ye perfect" ,without qualification, explanation or comment, then, it seems to me that you ARE implying something. I think when doing theology clarity and openess are valuable not vagarity and esoterica. </font>[/QUOTE]You have inferred what I did not imply. My purpose was not to argue for any doctrine sinless perfection, but to bring to the table some of the passages in the Bible that are often interpreted to teach sinless perfection, and to stimulate thought and dialogue on the basis of these scriptures so that we might all learn something in the process and grow in Christ together. And it appears to me that my purpose is being accomplished.

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It seems that I was not the only one to infer that. Wonder why?

 

Yes, it suggests two alternatives, and clearly two alternatives are in view in v. 12—obtaining the resurrection and being resurrected, i.e., two perspectives of one event. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]===

But how are "obtaining the resurrection" and being resurrected two alternatives? Look at the manner Paul possibly uses H similarily to 3:12 :

1) "persecution OR famine", Rom 8:35. Indeed neither separate us from His love. But these are two different experiences within His love not simply two perspectives of one experience. The connection is His love.


2) "We OR an angel", Gal 1:8. Yes, the thought is that both might preach a false Gospel. But while the preaching by either may be false in Paul's hyperbole, the individuals preaching are much different. The connection is the preaching.

So in 3:12 could there not be two experiences connected by the concept of 'perfection': One future and whole and one present and partial?

 

UZThD,

I will respond to these posts in detail, God willing, when I have the time to do so.