Doctrine of Sinless Perfection

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Craig

NO hurry. I know you must be busy too. As for me we've just moved and I'm trying to get my lib/study in order.

Thanks,

Bill Grover

 

UZThD: "As for me we've just moved and I'm trying
to get my lib/study in order."

Wow!!! you could be busy, i bettcha
I have a computer room (my wife is Thankful who posts here)
with two computers on the internet and a third which is a 286 based
comptuer which will NOT die ???
I have a library alslo. But grandchildren seem to use it all
summer for a bedroom ???

 

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Hi Ed

I am busy with the move, but not nearly as busy as I was just months ago. Then I was writing a dissertation and teaching public school ( now retired and dissertation accepted) . My library/study is in the garage because our home is modest.

We purposely sought for and bought a small house to discourage my sons from taking up residence with us. One is 28 and a guardsman recently back from Iraq, and the other is a 30 yr old former Marine. Of course the Marine decided to move in 500' from us and the guardsman says he "must stay with us till settled. "

Sigh. I'm 65 and still raising kids! I need to be perfect just to survive

 

Folks - Forget the heavy greek and hebrew theology. This is a simple case of common sense and facts.

Either Christians are still tempted by sin, and sometimes give into it, but are called back from their sin by Christ in them - or there are no Christians alive today, because I can tell you, there isn't a single, solitary human being, no matter HOW devoted to God they are, that does not sin from time to time, if only because they "wish" they could do something sinful.

 

Folks - Forget the heavy greek and hebrew theology. This is a simple case of common sense and facts.

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Perhaps you're right, but I do think it's important to judge our sense of a thing and our perception of what is factual by Scripture. And Scripture was enscripted in Hebrew and Greek. So, the Heb/Grk writings are the authority over my Faith and walk and not common sense. That is why I applaud Craig's references to the original language even though he and I may disagree! And...um...well, it isn't really very "heavy."

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Either Christians are still tempted by sin, and sometimes give into it, but are called back from their sin by Christ in them - or there are no Christians alive today, because I can tell you, there isn't a single, solitary human being, no matter HOW devoted to God they are, that does not sin from time to time, if only because they "wish" they could do something sinful.

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While I agree with you, the fact is that some in Christendom do teach forms of the possibility of "sinless perfection." That is why BB Warfield felt constrained to write a thousand excellent pages against that view. He didn't think that your argument, despite its seeming truthfuness, would be very convincing to proponants of that view or of much help to those disavowing it.

[ May 08, 2005, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]

 

Amen, Sister TexasSky -- Preach it!

 

UZThD: "We purposely sought for and bought a small house to discourage
my sons from taking up residence with us."

I have been there and done that.
I'm 61. My wife of 3-1/2 years and i moved into our small house with
ONE BEDROOM to discourage my 22-year-old son from living with us.
He lacks a year of college after this semester (final tests this week).
Also we have three of her grandchildren who might want to go to
the University of Oklahoma (OU) in the next four years
(and five more later ???). Nope, let them find a place to live.

My son's Mother died when he was 17 and i said i'd send him to college
as long as he made good grades. He is still making good grades! ! !

I just celebrated in April my 53rd year anniversary of Accepting Christ
as Lord (and since Savior). I have yet to achieve sinless perfection.
But i still have Salvation Security cause JESUS SAVES, not 'ed saves'
by preservation of believing, but God makes me keep on keeping on.
Preservation of Salvation is a JESUS THING, not an ed thing.

 

Craig, those quotes prove nothing. They could be interpreted to say they were 5 point Calvinists.

Not sure where that quote comes from but most likely refers to Glorification.

R. Shelton
In the fourth century the reaction against perfectionism was typified by the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius. Although Augustine affirmed an ideal of perfection, the summum bonum, it was a perfection attainable only in eternity. He felt that human perfection was an impossible moral ideal in this life because of the sinfulness of mankind resulting from the fall.

Augustine did state
He, moreover, who says that any man, after he has received remission of sins, has ever lived in this body, or still is living, so righteously as to have no sin at all, he contradicts the Apostle John, who declares that "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us....Although, then, by the grace of renovation "we are the sons of God," yet by reason of the remains of infirmity within us "it doth not appear what we shall be; only we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." Then there shall be no more sin, because no infirmity shall any longer remain within us or without us."

I am not surprised that H. Orton Wiley says this since he is a Holiness theologian. Peter Ruckman says we should all use a KJV Bible. J.M Carroll says there is a continuous line of Baptist churches from Jesus to now. All these like Wiley are not credible in their History since it is done with a bias to prove their beliefs are right.

We know the Church Fathers did not believe in Sinless Perfection, by their Liturgies. Ancient Church liturgy and prayers reveal much of the Fathers beliefs.

The Kyrie Eleison,( Lord Have Mercy) is a ancient prayer of the Fathers as well as the famous Jesus Prayer that was prayed by the Desert Fathers and is still dominant in Eastern Orthodoxy (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!)

 

Amen! Well said.

 

Throughout the entire history of the Church, we find people on both sides of the issue of entire sanctification, disparagingly referred to by many as “sinless perfection.” Those who understood the Gospel in its fullness realized in their own lives the absence of sin and so taught others. Those who did not understand the Gospel in its fullness did not realize in their own lives the absence of sin and so taught others. Freedom from sin and all of its entrapments comes only through faith in the fullness of the atonement of Christ. As long as a man does not believe that the atonement of Christ was sufficiently efficacious to enable him to live a life free from sin, he is going to continue to sin, feel guilty for his sin, and seek comfort in the scriptures that he imagines teach that sin in the life of a Christian is normal and inevitable. And rather than finding inspiration in the lives and teachings of sanctified saints of God, they make these saints and their teachings a subject of ridicule. The eternal destiny of such individuals has been the subject of debate among Christian theologians for nearly 2,000 years.

Matt. 7:13. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (NASB, 1995)

May our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ help all of us to come to a full knowledge of the truth and take it into our hearts and lives through faith in Him.

 

UZThD wrote,

I do not find any of this in Philippians 3,

1. Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9. and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11. in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14. I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
16. however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.
17. Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
18. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
19. whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
20. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21. who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

We find the resurrection of the body, the soma, explicitly mentioned in vv. 10, 11, and 21. The antecedent of the unsupplied object of the verb “obtained” in v. 12 is “the resurrection.” We find in this chapter no admonition for the Philippians to improve or grow in their Christian walk but simply to “keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.”

(All Scriptures, NASB, 1995; the emphasis in bold type is mine)

 

UZThD wrote,

I wrote,

“If you are familiar with the literature on Philippians, you know that most of the commentators see one thing here rather than two. However, they do not agree as to what that one thing is. From my point of view the resurrection is in view and sanctification is not.”

How then could Paul write in the very same context,

17. Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

If Paul was not entirely sanctified at this point in his life, he would have been a VERY poor role model. Obviously Kent does not believe that the atonement of Christ was sufficiently efficacious for Christians to live a sanctified life, and that tell us very clearly that his own life was not a sanctified life. I would not call Kent as a witness because he has a very serious credibility problem.

Please quote Chrysostom here so that we can all see exactly what he actually wrote (otherwise, I will have to dig it out of my own library—and I am also busy—and my personal library is not housed in one building, but two—miles apart from each other!

But Lightfoot does NOT see the resurrection in the passage, so there is no second idea!

Just the opposite—Lenski wrote on this passage, “‘Or’ is conjunctive and not disjunctive. It presents the same thought with a different word, yes, and with a different voice: ‘or have already been made complete.’” Lenski does NOT see the resurrection in the passage!

Hawthorne believes everyone is wrong (“None of these interpretations of Paul’s concise statement … does justice to its vocabulary nor to its context.), and, after giving a VERY brief summary of the views of others, he give his own novel and unique (as well as absurd) interpretation,

“Paul means to say that he does not lay claim to having fully grasped the meaning of Christ at this point in time.”

 

UZThD wrote,

No, Lightner sees only one idea here, sanctification. He does NOT see a reference either to the resurrection or the judgment seat of Christ in this passage. Remember, we are talking here of the Greek conjunction η and its function in the sentence.

 

UZThD wrote,

I read both Kent and Kennedy, and their points of view are almost identical. Neither one of them believes that the atonement of Christ was sufficiently efficacious for Christians to live a sanctified life. And they both see the conjunction to be conjunctive and not disjunctive.

Wicks is of the same mind as Kennedy. What make you believe that he sees the conjunction to be disjunctive?

 

Dear Brother, the ultimate role model is, of course, our Lord Jesus Christ. But mature Christians in the process of being made like Him can also serve as very good role models. They can be Light to others, as they not only walk in righteousness, but, also as they walk,in humiliity, allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal ever more areas and depths of being where they still 'fall short', continually confessing to God and one another when they 'miss the mark', and being cleansed of unrighteousness to greater and greater depths. And sanctification is not only the process by which we will ultimately be made entirely like Him--but to be sanctified (or lead a sanctified life) means to be 'set apart for sacred purposes'(or to lead a life set apart by God for His purposes). Therefore, in that sense, we are not only being sanctified--but 'sanctified' already. We have been set apart through faith in Jesus Christ. And our Eternal Father sees us 'now' as we will be. (It's hard to use tenses in discussing an eternal 'time' frame.) But, in our earthly time frame, we must move along the Way, 'being' sanctified through the work of the Holy Spirit in us. There is much work for the Holy Spirit to do to make us ready to meet Him, face to face. We must daily work with Him by picking up our cross and following Him on the Way to our Ultimate Prize.

Now, I do not believe I have just presented the winning argument that is going to convince anyone. Those are just my final thoughts. You all have done an excellent job of presenting your beliefs, scripture, supporting commentary and analyses. I have complete confidence in the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth to all those who earnestly seek it. Not just the truth in scripture, but in our daily lives, as He speaks, to those who listen, through every experience. He is the God of All Truth.

Thank you, each, for sharing your thoughts and understanding. I have learned a good bit. My prayers will be with each of you.. "until the day dawns and the morning star rises" in our hearts.

 

How Many? The Protestant Reformers certaintly rejected “sinless perfection” views. Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodox all reject “sinless perfection.” The ancient Church liturgies as well as the Church Councils rejected “sinless perfection" as does Scripture.

Anyone thinking they are living without sin should read

1 John 1:7-8
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[/QUOTE]I read both Kent and Kennedy, and their points of view are almost identical. Neither one of them believes that the atonement of Christ was sufficiently efficacious for Christians to live a sanctified life. And they both see the conjunction to be conjunctive and not disjunctive.

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You disagree with the position of Kent and Kennedy, I suppose, because it is contrary to yours. That's fine. I'm not arguing that they are right, only that in the literature some see the text as referencing sanctification OR see the two ideas of sanctification and resurrection. Please reread my premise which began my eight examples.

Kent and Kennedy both see the conjunction as conjunctive not disjunctive?

How does Kennedy not see a difference between the object of elabon and the object of teteleiomai when Kennedy says the former verb refers to the apostle's past experience and the latter verb to " ALL that is involved in winning and knowing Christ"? Clearly , therefore, Kennedy is taking the conjunction as disjunctive!

How does Kent not see the conjunction as disjunctive when he says re v. 12 that Paul is contrasting the limited sanctifying effects of his conversion with the responsibility to pursue spiritual progress?

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Wicks is of the same mind as Kennedy. What make you believe that he sees the conjunction to be disjunctive?

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Again, I never said that each of the examples from the literature I referenced stated that the conjunction was disjunctive. Are you setting up strawmen? What I said was that some examples in the literature take the text as meaning sanctification OR containing two ideas! Either position is contrary to the one you seem to be defending.

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