Does 1 Cor 13 prove Cessationism?

[DHK]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Rhetorician

Good point. A friend of mine who returned from the mission field in Ethiopia after about 25 years told me that it was like going back into the book of Acts. He also told me that he does not share those things in America because most people would not understand and label him a pentecostal. He and his wife were both in the Navigators at one time. He is certainly not pentecostal at all.

I have been on the mission field for many years, and for similar reasons have not shared some things. However, it is not experience that I ground my theology on; it is the Word of God. Because someone had this or that experience does that validate what the Word of God has to say on the subject? Our position must be grounded on the Word of God, not on experience. This is the failure of the Charismatic Movement. Their theology is based on their experience instead of the other way around.
DHK

 

[TaterTot]

Exactly. Great post.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DHK:
Our position must be grounded on the Word of God, not on experience. This is the failure of the Charismatic Movement. Their theology is based on their experience instead of the other way around.
DHK

Sad but I think you are right. But there have been times when I believe conservatives do the same thing as well.

I believe we must study hard to arrive at correct theology and practice. I truly believe that if we do we will often find ourselves in the middle being shot at from both sides just like Jesus was. The liberals and conservatives did not like Jesus because he pointed them to God's plan and not their pet theology.

I am convinced that if we took away every Bible from the church it would affect us little because most people do not read or study it and even fewer are obedient and make disciples.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by DHK:
A question:
If God gave one individual the power to speak in a foreign language, according to his divine grace and power, does that necessarily mean that the gift of speaking in tongues is in operation today?

That is a great question to wrestle with... I am not sure there is a definite answer.

On the other side....if it has ceased and is no longer needed...then why would there be any need for even a one time situation?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:

On the other side....if it has ceased and is no longer needed...then why would there be any need for even a one time situation?

Because even as Charismatics continue to point out, God is not limited. God is able to work in wondrous and marvellous ways. The example of speaking in a foreign language would be the exception--an incident that rarely if ever happens.

I like to use the example of healing. I firmly believe that God heals. He heals according to James 5. He even heals outside the method prescribed in James 5. He heals in answer to prayer according to his providential will. However it is not always in his will to heal. It wasn't in the Bible either. Epharoditus was left sick at Miletus. Timothy, was advised to take wine for his stomach sake and oft infirmities. Paul himself admitted to infirmities and sickness in 2Cor.12. Not all were healed.

The gift of healing (or an example of it) is given in Acts 5:16 by Peter:

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Does this ever happen today? Can anyone point to any person who has the ability to do this today?
Is there anyone who can walk up and down the corridors of the hospitals in a city and heal all that are sick? The answer is no.

Think of this verse. People from all the cities all around Jerusalem came to Peter, and they were all healed, whether or not they had faith. No one has that kind of power today. The gift of healing has ceased.
God still heals. But the gift of healing has most certainly ceased. It is the miraculous sign gifts that we need to concentrate our attention on. And if this gift has ceased, it is not reasonable to conclude that the other gifts have ceased as well?
DHK

 

[just-want-peace]

He also told me that near the end of his stay that if he went to a public school and told them he would like to tell them about Jesus they would close the classes and have an assembly for that express purpose.

Man, wouldn't it be fantastic if that would happen in the USA today? WOW!!

Just one of multitudes of reasons that the federal govt should get out of the education business.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by just-want-peace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He also told me that near the end of his stay that if he went to a public school and told them he would like to tell them about Jesus they would close the classes and have an assembly for that express purpose.

Man, wouldn't it be fantastic if that would happen in the USA today? WOW!!

Just one of multitudes of reasons that the federal govt should get out of the education business. </font>[/QUOTE]It was their national government which was involved in the public schools. Don't forget, they had gone through communism and knew what that was like. Sometimes a dose of persecution and ruin is good. It helps to remind people of what can happen.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by DHK:
The gift of healing (or an example of it) is given in Acts 5:16 by Peter:

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Can you help me see Biblically the distinction between healing and the "gift" of healing?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:

Here is a question for you. If it has ceased why do we have situations like this following story that I shared in another thread taking place?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My missions professor in seminary shared with us a testimony from his days in the mission field.He was new to the field and just getting started in his language studies and he had an opportunity to preach at an event with an interpreter. Something happened and the nterpreter was not able to come. The man got up and preached to the people a gospel message and was able to speak fluently in their language during the message. When he got done, he did not know any more of the language than when he started. I believe this to be a modern example of speaking in tongues.

I am not referring to the gibberish garbage that we see taking place in many places in our world. I am referring to legitimate stories like the above that seem to provide validation for the gift of tongues still being active today. </font>[/QUOTE]I responded to this on the other thread and am inserting that response here:
I think a cessationist could believe this happened and still be a cessationist, because what you describe above is not the gift of tongues, imo, unless your prof continued to have the gift of tongues and was able to do this as part of presenting the gospel on a regular basis.

If the above was an isolated incident, it was purely a miracle from the Lord, not the gift of tongues. As far as I understand it, a cessationist believes that the gift of tongues has ceased, not that God would not do something like the above through people here and there. Same with healing - God still heals of course, and he might do it through someone's prayer. But the gift of healing which is given to certain people is something else.____End

As far as your question about the gift of healing, I would like to see DHK's response (I think he and I are on the same page on this but he explains it better), but I would say the gift of healing is a sign gift given to specific people which they can use in various situations. God uses them to heal. But God healing without using people through their gift of healing -- healing in answer to prayer, for example, is God's power of healing apart from the sign gift of healing.

 

[Rhetorician]

PastorSBC1303,

This is the type of mssionary thing that I meant on the first page of this thread.

I am not one to interpret the Scripture through "the experiences of men;" however, being big on the sovereignty of God as I am--I have learned a long time ago that God is no confined in a box.

I am sure if we had all been there on Pentecost that we would have had a great deal of trouble with the "orthodoxy" of their age as well.

"Let God be true and every man a liar!"

sdg!

rd

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
however, being big on the sovereignty of God as I am--I have learned a long time ago that God is no confined in a box.I am sure if we had all been there on Pentecost that we would have had a great deal of trouble with the "orthodoxy" of their age as well."Let God be true and every man a liar!"

Amen!

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I think a cessationist could believe this happened and still be a cessationist, because what you describe above is not the gift of tongues...

I think the position you describe would be consistent with what many cessationists believe concerning healing. A good number of cessationists believe that the gift of healing has ceased, but that in no way speaks to whether God might miraculously heal someone or heal someone in answer to prayer. Most think He can and does.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
When the Gospel goes into a new "people group," and let's say for instance that they do not have a written language. The Wycliffe Translators or whomever come along and formulate the alphabet and begin the translation of their language and teach them how to read and write etc. During this time the Gospel needs (you know what I mean here I hope) some form of certification or vindication with the native tribe. This is the time in which the "gifts" are demonstrable. Then, slowly and surely, as the educational process is complete there is no longer a need for the gifts since the Word of God is translated into the vernacular of the people.

1. I have no idea what you mean, so would you please explain?

2. The Bible is sufficient for drawing the lost to Christ. It needs nothing, least of all, the gift of tongues.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by DHK:
If the gift of speaking in a foreign language were truly in effect today it would be commonly used today. We would see it in many churches. But the fact is we don't. It has ceased. Other than the one exception that you mention, I never hear of anyone speaking in an actual foreign language and an interpreter actually translating it for the benefit of others--all on a miraculous plane. It just doesn't happen today. None of the sign gifts are in operation today. Where is the evidence that they are?
DHK

How many instances are there in the Bible of the gift of tongues being used. I can only think of two places off the top of my head where they were used: The Day of Pentecost and in the Church of Corinth, ironically, where Paul gave the Church instructions on how to properly excercise the gift of tongues within the Church. I say ironically because it is the letter to this very same Church that the cessationists claim ended the gift of tongues. Why set up guidelines for the practice of tongues if they were done away with? As a matter of fact, the very next chapter states this:

5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[e] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Orderly Worship
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

1 Corinthians 14

I see a potential problem with the cessationist theology here. Don't you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by DHK:
A question:
If God gave one individual the power to speak in a foreign language, according to his divine grace and power, does that necessarily mean that the gift of speaking in tongues is in operation today?

A Question:

If God gave only one individual, or even none the power to speak in a foreign language, according to his divine grace and power, does that necessarily mean that the gift of speaking in tongues is not in operation today?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

bump