Does a beer hurt

[latterrain77]

Hi Merrill. Your quote of Matt. 26: 29 won't work. The phrase "fruit of the vine" does NOT mean wine. The Greek word for "wine" is "oinos." The Greek for "fruit of the vine" is "gennema" which means "offspring" of the vine; grapes. Furthermore, the phrase "fruit of the vine" (gennema) could potentially mean ANY fruit, not necessarily grapes, but in any event does NOT mean "wine" (oinos).

Your mention of John 2 does NOT show that Jesus provided wine for Himself and a crowd for consumption. It shows that he turned water into wine for the purpose of illustrating that He was whom He said He was - which the servants quickly discovered (John 2: 9). In addition, the miraculous wine was ordered delivered to ONE person ONLY which was the governor of the feast (John 2: 8). Furthermore, John 2: 3-4 shows the LORD's angst at the request of those who WANTED wine (oinos) and, John 2: 3 shows that the wine was requested by "they," and on behalf of "they," but not "us." So, this verse only proves that "alcohol consumption" is desired by the worldly ("they") and not by believers ("US"). There is nothing in the text that shows the LORD or the "servants" (John 2: 9) partook of any wine (oinos). Quite the contrary.

Your quote of 1 Tim. 5: 23 is correct. Wine (oinos) could be used as a medicine. However, in our modern era of medicine we have things like Pepto Bismol and stronger medications that do the job better than wine (does wine even work as a medicine or was it's use just a placebo to distract the ill?). Furthermore, the 1 Tim. 5: 23 text makes it clear that even under that very limited circumstance, one could only use a LITTLE wine for ailments. The Greek word for "little" is "oligos" which means "puny." Puny means a "capful" at best. Accordingly, this verse hardly provides the "escape clause" that so many seek as a means to imbibe.

In the final conclusion, the Bible won't allow boozing for believers. Prov. 20: 1, Prov. 31: 4, etc, are very clear, and this truth is utterly unambiguous from the text. latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Hello Haruo. Man, your post was an EXCELLENT witness. Thank YOU!

latterrain77

 

[mozier]

There is one aspect that I've noticed has never been mentioned in any of the threads of this toppic: the fact that a bit of alcohol can be good for you.

Recent studies have shown that a single serving of wine or beer has properties in it that are good for the heart, as well as helping clear the arteries or at least keeping them clear of clogs. As well, a single serving of beer or wine does indeed help with digestion and keeps the intestines working well!

I think that Paul had the right idea when he recommended to Timothy to take a little bit of wine for his stomach. One must never drink for the purpose of getting drunk, but for those who are not addicted to alcohol or prone to such an addiction, a single serving may serve you and your health well.


mozier

 

[Haruo]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
When I eat a big turkey dinner on Thanksgiving (or overeat to be more precise) the chemicals in turkey make my body drowsy so I won't mind watching Detroit lose another football game.

When I eat a Milky Way candy bar, the suger in it gives my body a rush for about 20 minutes, then I crash and burn in a "low" for an hour or more.

Can anyone tell me that having a glass of wine, whiskey, beer, et al does NOT have any affect on you, your judgment, your reactions, your brain function?

If one glass will affect you and 3 will push your blood alcohol over .08% and make it illegal for you to even drive a vehicle, why would I put my body "under the control" of alcohol?

Perhaps for reasons very like those that cause you to put your body "under the control" of turkey or Milky Way bars?

Judging from the way he fed the nine thousand, I doubt Jesus would object to Thanksgiving dinner, and judging from the way he acted at Cana, I doubt he would object to his followers drinking wine.

For those like diabetics and phenylketonurics and alcoholics for whom smaller quantities (or none) of certain substances are safe than for the majority, it is unwise to pretend that we are like the majority.

Rev. Joshua is certainly right that there are many situations where a glass of wine or a beer will enhance one's opportunity to witness. However, for me to use it that way would be suicidal.

Haruo

 

[Refreshed]

You've probably heard about the health benefits of red wine - when used in moderation. But did you know that health benefits are available from drinking purple grape juice?

This is from an article on the web. Here's the link: Grape Juice is Good for Your Heart

While red wine, white wine, and purple grape juice all have high antioxidant activity, it appears that purple grape juice has the most staying power.

Apparently, not only does purple grape juice do the same thing as red wine medicinally, it does it better. It's the grapes, not the alcohol that makes it beneficial for the heart.

Jason

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Refreshed:
Apparently, not only does purple grape juice do the same thing as red wine medicinally, it does it better. It's the grapes, not the alcohol that makes it beneficial for the heart.

Actually, it's both according to the latest research.

 

[Glory Bound]

Actually, the .08 blood alcohol limit that most states observe is misleading. You can be convicted of drunk driving at lower levels, based on witness testimony by the law enforcement officer who stopped you.

Christians who drink love to say that it's okay to drink, but not to get drunk, or drink to excess. This statement is so easy it rolls off the tongue without any thought.

What is "drunk" or "excess"? If I were considering drinking for the first time, what practical advice would you give me regarding these limits?

 

[mozier]

For the record, though no one has accused me of anything, I do want to say that I do not drink alcohol at all.

But to be honest, I do not see anything wrong with having an occasional beer, or having one glass of wine with a good supper. I believe that God has given us the gift of discretion, and so we need to use it wisely.

My goodness, am I becoming a liberal???


mozier

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by mozier:
For the record, though no one has accused me of anything, I do want to say that I do not drink alcohol at all.

But to be honest, I do not see anything wrong with having an occasional beer, or having one glass of wine with a good supper. I believe that God has given us the gift of discretion, and so we need to use it wisely.

My goodness, am I becoming a liberal???


mozier

hummmm i may have to take a poll on "is becoming a liberal harmful and sinful"
to become a liberal is a disaster

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Glory Bound:
Actually, the .08 blood alcohol limit that most states observe is misleading. You can be convicted of drunk driving at lower levels, based on witness testimony by the law enforcement officer who stopped you.

I was once almost convicted of drunk driving a few years ago. The officer pulled me over because I made a few small swerves as I was driving, and asked if was coming home from a Christmas party. I said, "yes, I am, why?" He explained about my swerving, and then I realized where this was headed. I had not been drinking at all, I had been trying to unwrap those little Christmas chocolate balls, wrapped in foil. He laughed and gave me a warning when I offered him some. I no longer unwrap chocolate balls and drive.

My point? Determining the sinfulness of an activity is not necessarily dependent on how it affects you. I agree drunk driving is wrong legally and morally though, even if you are able to drive in a straight line.

Christians who drink love to say that it's okay to drink, but not to get drunk, or drink to excess. This statement is so easy it rolls off the tongue without any thought.

No, I have put a LOT of thought into it. Basically, that statement is simply a summary of what the Bible says about it.

What is "drunk" or "excess"? If I were considering drinking for the first time, what practical advice would you give me regarding these limits?

Interesting question. It sort of feels like a trap of some sort.

For what it's worth, here's what I would say:

- if you doubt that taking that drink is not a sin for you, then it *is* a sin for you, so don't do it.
- if someone is around you that may stumble because of seeing you drink (a brother that struggles with alcohol, children, etc), then don't do it.
- don't drink if there is any chance of driving within a few hours
- don't only have a drink: eat a good-sized meal with it.
- consider your bodyweight: a glass of wine can have different effects on my 95 pound friend than on my 250 pound friend - adjust your intake accordingly.
- limit yourself to one (or less), and don't be by yourself, so both you and an observer can note any effects.

Brian

 

[Terry_Herrington]

As in most of these threads concerning issues such as the consumption of alcohol, it is easy to differentiate between those who try to follow what the Bible says and those who add man made conditions.

There is not one Scripture that forbids the consumption of alcohol in moderation. To say that there is is a lie.

Why is it that so many Christians, especially those who are the most fundamental, feel that they have to add to what God has said? It would have been easy for the Lord to have condemned the consumption of even one drop of alcohol, but He did not do this. What is it that makes people think that they have to go beyond what the Bible teaches in order to please God?

 

[Ben W]

Because people cannot help themselves Terry, look at the Pharisees who added to the Jewish Law.

 

[Pete]

"It's rather unpleasantly like being drunk."
"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"
"Ask a glass of water."

Douglas Adams, The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Now I have that off my chest...

I do not drink beer or any other alcoholic drink. However for the last 10+ years I have been a cab driver and have seen up close plenty who do. It is not a pretty sight, smell, or sound. If a referendum was held tomorrow to bring in prohibition I would vote for it.

That said, I voted for moderation in the poll. While the Bible clearly states the level descended to by some of my fares is sin, (so far) I have been unable to find similar statements about moderation...

Pete

 

[Glory Bound]

Originally posted by BrianT:

I no longer unwrap chocolate balls and drive.

Great story!

What is "drunk" or "excess"? If I were considering drinking for the first time, what practical advice would you give me regarding these limits?

Interesting question. It sort of feels like a trap of some sort.

For what it's worth, here's what I would say:

- if you doubt that taking that drink is not a sin for you, then it *is* a sin for you, so don't do it.
- if someone is around you that may stumble because of seeing you drink (a brother that struggles with alcohol, children, etc), then don't do it.
- don't drink if there is any chance of driving within a few hours
- don't only have a drink: eat a good-sized meal with it.
- consider your bodyweight: a glass of wine can have different effects on my 95 pound friend than on my 250 pound friend - adjust your intake accordingly.
- limit yourself to one (or less), and don't be by yourself, so both you and an observer can note any effects.

Not a "trap" really, just looking to illustrate a point. While your points are good advice, you skipped over the key portion of my question.

I believe oft quoted limits on drinking are very vague. What does "drunk" really mean? We all know the classic, falling down drunk. But obviously there must be a point in which a person actually becomes drunk. What is that point? As a novice drinker, how am I to know when to stop drinking?

 

[Helen]

First, don't do more than sip the wine or take small swallows of the beer. Then, the minute you feel any sort of a flush or warmth anywhere on your body (for some it is the cheeks, for some the thighs -- it's different for different people), stop drinking. You have done all the good alcohol can do by dilating the blood vessels. It is this which does so much good in helping prevent heart attacks.

Or stop before you feel the flush.

Never continue after.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Glory Bound:
While your points are good advice, you skipped over the key portion of my question.

I believe oft quoted limits on drinking are very vague. What does "drunk" really mean? We all know the classic, falling down drunk. But obviously there must be a point in which a person actually becomes drunk. What is that point? As a novice drinker, how am I to know when to stop drinking?

It's a hard question to answer, especially for me because I've never been "drunk". I've never even been "tipsy" or felt a flush. I don't think there's a clear-cut line, where one side of the line is "moderate" and the other is "excess". This is true not only of drinking, but of anything that can be abused. This morning in a meeting at work, I had two doughnuts. Then I had 3 timbits (doughnut holes for you non-Canadians). Did I cross the line from "moderate" to "excess"? Am I guilty of gluttony? How do I know when to stop eating doughnuts?

 

[Glory Bound]

Helen, you crack me up!

Originally posted by BrianT:

It's a hard question to answer, especially for me because I've never been "drunk". I've never even been "tipsy" or felt a flush. I don't think there's a clear-cut line, where one side of the line is "moderate" and the other is "excess".

This is true, and this is where I believe the danger lies in alcohol. It is not a sin to take a drink, but it may not really be WISE, either.

2,000 years ago, the relatively mild effects of a couple of drinks would not be a problem. Fast-forward to today and the environment is different. In 2003 we operate large vehicles at speeds that would terrorize the people in biblical times. We routinely pass vehicles on the road with just a small yellow line to mark the lanes between cars going in opposite directions at high speeds.

I know a lot of people say they wouldn't drive if they were going to drink, but then I have to wonder about putting yourself in that kind of condition in the first place - where your reflexes are slowed and your judgement is impaired.

I also find interesting all of the "guidelines" surrounding alcohol. Could you imagine someone warning another in the same way about drinking water? Doesn't that seem to indicate there's something dangerous about alcohol?

It's not a sin, but is it wise behavior in light of the world we live in today?

 

[Helen]

GloryBound, salt, also, is a poison in too great an amount. And, actually, so is water in a body. Too much water can badly disrupt the chemical balance.

On the other hand we have found that some poisons are actually wonderful in extremely small amounts for healing various problems.

Know your body. Know what you personally can and cannot tolerate. When in doubt, don't.

For instance, I react badly to many medications! It's an inherited thing called paradoxic drug reactions. Valium gives me muscle spasms. Many pain killers hype me up for 24 hours or more! And yet they are common drugs for many people. I know better, and will not take even a 'little' of those that I know my body doesn't deal well with.

However, for me, alcohol in small quantities is not only safe but beneficial. Twice I have been prescribed a glass of red wine a day -- once to stop a type of labor known as Braxton-Hicks contractions which were going on every three minutes day in and day out, preventing me from sleeping, and once to boost my iron count after a round of chemotherapy for a type of pre-cancerous or 'almost cancerous' condition when my oldest son was 2.

It took a LONG time to be willing to drink any wine at all after I had to have it medicinally, and to this day there are some red wines I cannot even smell without remembering being so sick before. Not from the wine -- from the almost-lymphoma. (In the same way, I cannot tolerate the smell of Irish Spring soap, either, because the smell of it made me so morning sick when I was pregnant!).

So everyone is different. There are people with severe reactions to alcohol and people who become addicted to it very easily. There are people to drink to be 'one of the crowd'. None of these people should be near the stuff! But then I shouldn't be near certain things, either, and I make sure I'm not!

Jesus was accused of being a 'wine-bibber' or a 'drunkard.' That would have been a bizarre accusation if he never even had a glass of it! In the same way he could not have been accused of gluttony had he never eaten! But he obviously did eat, and he just as obviously had wine. It may have been diluted or it may have been occasionally. I don't know.

There is no reason to be afraid of salt because it can poison you in too large amounts. There is no reason to be afraid of wine or beer because it can poison you in too large amounts. There is every reason to be wary, though, and to use good judgment.

 

[Gib]

Does beer hurt? Yes, it does. I had a beer keg get set on my foot once. It hurt.