Does a Pastor HAVE to take a stand on election/predestination in sermons?

[Brother Bob]

Children don't go to Hell. I defy anyone to show me a scripture to a child, that requires repentance.

 

[GodsRealTruth]

I am a pastor that heard another pastor at a brotherhood meeting Thursday night preach on this very subject.

As far as I am concerned he put an end to the debate. He stated "Instead of giving me Calvinism or Arminian, just give me God's Grace and it ends the debate!"

I agree 100% with him! God's Grace is what we all need.

 

[Grasshopper]

To answer the OP, yes, a pastor should take a stand. The correct stand in context of where election and predestination are applied. Unfortunately, it is assumed the calvinist idea of those terms is the correct one.

Funny, I was always taught the calvinst view was incorrect.

 

[Pastor Larry]

He stated "Instead of giving me Calvinism or Arminian, just give me God's Grace and it ends the debate!"

I agree 100% with him! God's Grace is what we all need.

And that's all you get with Calvinism. That is why it is called The Doctrines of Grace.

 

[Brother Bob]

Through faith, right?

 

[El_Guero]

I know my salvation was through faith in the Grace expressed in the death, burial, and resurrection of my Lord and Savior.

Right?

:thumbs:

Through faith, right?

 

[Brother Bob]

John, chapter 8

"24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Right :thumbs:

 

[AresMan]

Through faith, right?

I don't see where anyone here (Calminian/Arminist) denies that faith is the channel through which grace is applied as the Scripture clearly teaches. The actual debate is from whence is the ultimate source of the faith. Are you attempting to resurrect the same red herring that has been hashed over and over again?

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't see where anyone here (Calminian/Arminist) denies that faith is the channel through which grace is applied as the Scripture clearly teaches. The actual debate is from whence is the ultimate source of the faith. Are you attempting to resurrect the same red herring that has been hashed over and over again?

I am not attempting to raise nothing. I posted "through faith" and you want to make it a "red herring", not me.

If you call "faith" a red herring then I guess so, I find "faith" comes first myself and the only way to get to Grace or Salvation is through faith. The Scriptures are filled with it.

I was saved by grace through faith .

Let me guess, you are Calvinist?

 

[El_Guero]

hey, man. look, I don't know you from Adam, and that was not meant to insult you at all. just my manner of speaking, as you have yours.

Ironically, you really did not like your manner reflected back at you. That is not an indicator that you like your own manner.

Nor, do I intend to insult. Rather I intend to focus not on the OP but the OP in Light of God's Revelation.

 

[El_Guero]

OK back to the OP:

But then think about what you were saying.
. . . .
Let me quote you :

"Sadly lost men, women, and children die and go to Hell every day for want of those that will preach the Word..."

. . . .

I would rather that you had quoted Paul:

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

It is my premise that God knowing what He was doing, intended His Word to be preached - and when we do not submit to His Word for His glory - His will is NOT accomplished (sin is accomplished).

And on the possibility that there are those here that discount Paul's theology (God's Theology presented through His messenger Paul), God also spoke through another prophet years before:

18 When I [God speaking] say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

 

[El_Guero]

From my study of God and His Word [I only read part of the Institutes - that time would have allowed me to read the OT and maybe the NT again], I find that God did (does) have ONE and only one plan.

My interpretation of Scripture has lead me to believe that the Evangelists, Prophets, and Pastors that God has given to the Church are SENT by God as part of HIS plan.

How you define the steps in His ordo salutis, should be separate from (yet still encompass the step of proclamation) how you define His revealed method of proclamation of the Gospel.

There are those today that will go to Hell because you and I chose not to warn them. God was clear in His command to Ezekiel. Can we say that Ezekiel was the ONLY man that God ever commanded to proclaim the Gospel?

Christ said that the harvest is there pray for workers . . . .

Off the cuff, I remembered three individuals that God spoke through (and considered it important enough to have preserved in His Word) saying that the workers of the harvest are responsible for the proclamation part of the ordo salutis.

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe God calls His preachers and sends them out into all the world.

Ephesians, chapter 4


1: I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2: With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3: Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7: But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9: (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10: He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

There are those today that will go to Hell because you and I chose not to warn them

Explain? When do any of us choose not to warn anyone? Surely you don't believe its our fault that others go to Hell. Every

man will stand before God for himself and not another. If we as preachers fail we shall be chastised in this life, not when we

come before God. To the OP, how could any preacher sent of God not preach on predestination and election. I find it a duty to

explain to my congregation that they all have the same chance that I had and all men. Predestination is no great thing if you

realize that God is outside of time and sees all, or He can work in time if He chooses. All the believers are predestinated to be

conformed to the image of Christ.

(Christlike), that is what makes us Christians.

 

[pinoybaptist]

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

Well, now, I don't know if you do this, but, most of those who oppose the Doctrine of Grace say that we who adhere to it love to lift Scriptures out of context.
You're out of context, way out.
Who was Paul speaking about ?
He was speaking about still unbelieving Jews caught up in the religion and traditions and all those other stuff of Judaism. Jews he considered to be part of the true Israel, the Israel of promise, not national Israel of his day and of our day.
To them Paul wanted to bring the gospel, to save them, in the timely sense, from sinful worship, off the mark worship, that can only result in them going round and round in circles wanting to please God and be accepted of God when Christ has already by His death and resurrection reconciled them to God, as He had done others for whom He died.

You have a hard time separating and recognizing the eternal from the timely.

Eternal salvation is ALL of God, from beginning to end, it was planned in eternity, it is predicated on no goodness, obedience, theology, or anything else that has to do with man, it stands simply on the basis of God's mercy (Titus 3:5), and it glorifies the Triune God, and Him alone. Eternal salvation is meant for all of God's elect, regardless of their geographical, racial, religious, political, economic, or theological circumstances, the blood was shed for His elect, and only them, and it cannot be efficacious to anyone other than for whom it was intended. Eternal salvation is not dependent on the gospel being preached, for the gospel never saved in the eternal sense. It told of the eternal mercies and salvation of God for His people. It brought life and immortality to light.

Timely salvation on the other hand, has to do with the elect's position in time. Has he heard the gospel ? He is commanded to repent of his timely errors. He is commanded to obey the gospel. His blessings and curses here in time depends on his response to gospel commands and his submission to God. And because God has nothing but their good in His mind and purposes, He will enable them to obedience. Again, their conversion has nothing to do with the preacher's eloquence, or obedience, or personal sacrifices.

This is where you come in, and all those who preach the gospel. The eternal salvation of God's own does not depend on you or your message, but their instruction, upkeep, feeding, protection from wolves in sheep's clothing, most importantly, their view of God, directly related to how they live their lives and how they worship the Savior, the correction of their theology, all these are your functions here in time.

 

[mnw]

So we have no part to play in spreading the Gospel?

 

[pinoybaptist]

So we have no part to play in spreading the Gospel?

I certainly have no objection if you want to say that God sent you out to spread the gospel in a foreign or local place. I wish you Godspeed, and all the best.
But personally I believe the spread of the gospel was assigned to the Apostles and by them to others. And they did a good job of doing it, because the Name of Christ is known in every part of the world, and half of it reject the name officially, and you certainly had no part in that spreading.
And then also, for you to insist that by extension the command to spread the gospel applies to all believers after the apostles bring up a lot of questions, that will beg more questions.

First, who are the believers ?
Second, how do you qualify, or how do they qualify, for the title "believers" ?
Third, can you trace your authority back to the Apostles ? If you can, by scripture, then tell me where you're at, and I will uproot my family, and join your church.
That would be tantamount to the claim that this or that church is descended directly from the Jerusalem church. No scriptural basis.
Fourth, on what Scriptural basis will you assign to yourself a responsibility that Scripture does not assign to you.
Fifth, above I said, and to the others, question: who are those others, and where are the Scriptures that those others extended authority to others, and so on down the centuries, until they got to you ?

 

[mnw]

I presume you do not see the Great Commission as being for believers.

What of II Corinthians 5 that speaks of the ministry of reconciliation being given to believers?

To be honest, you seem to be coming from an angle so far from mine I don't think even some of our terms are the same.

Yes, the apostles did do a good job of spreading the Gospel, but only throughout the KNOWN world. Much has happened since their day.

First, who are the believers ?

I am inclined to say those who believe, but I am not sure that is what you mean.

Second, how do you qualify, or how do they qualify, for the title "believers" ?

Um, well, they believe.

Third, can you trace your authority back to the Apostles ? If you can, by scripture, then tell me where you're at, and I will uproot my family, and join your church.

No, I can't and don't see that I need to. Just hang tight where you are, I don't think you'd like my church... :thumbs:

Fourth, on what Scriptural basis will you assign to yourself a responsibility that Scripture does not assign to you.

So all the references to us to witness, spread the Gospel and to recieve the ministry of reconciliation were just temporal and local?

Fifth, above I said, and to the others, question: who are those others, and where are the Scriptures that those others extended authority to others, and so on down the centuries, until they got to you ?

Sorry, I don't see the relation to this topic.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I presume you do not see the Great Commission as being for believers.

Well, I know that the Great Commission was given to the Eleven, and by extension, to the church of whom they were a part.

What of II Corinthians 5 that speaks of the ministry of reconciliation being given to believers?

I'm not sure that the ministry of reconciliation that Paul speaks about refers also to all "believers". Kindly read it again, in context, paying attention to the pronouns.

To be honest, you seem to be coming from an angle so far from mine I don't think even some of our terms are the same.

Yeah. I think you're right.

Yes, the apostles did do a good job of spreading the Gospel, but only throughout the KNOWN world. Much has happened since their day.

So, you're saying that the gospel was spread to the UNKNOWN world through someone else ? Therein lies the rub. Now how do we know that the gospel preached by these "someone else's" is the correct gospel. Now, we know that Paul, Peter, John, James, Barnabas, Titus, Timothy, Mark, Luke, and all those personalities mentioned in the Bible all preached the right gospel as handed by the Lord Himself.
But now, how do we know we are preaching the right gospel ?
Look around you.
How many gospel versions are there ?
As many as there are Bible versions.
As many as there are denominations.
As many as there are Baptist divisions.

I am inclined to say those who believe, but I am not sure that is what you mean.
Um, well, they believe.

Believe what ?
The Catholics believe Jesus, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, Mary, the Saints, the Pope.
The Adventists believe in Works and the Law.
The Protestants say they preach the gospel, yet most of their members live lives which are not congruent to what they say they preach.
The Baptists preach a lot of things besides the gospels.
And they all believe.
So, believe what ?

No, I can't and don't see that I need to. Just hang tight where you are, I don't think you'd like my church... :thumbs:

Thanks for the advice. I'll take it.:thumbsup:

So all the references to us to witness, spread the Gospel and to recieve the ministry of reconciliation were just temporal and local?

There are no references to "us" to witness. Ye shall be witnesses of me addresses the Eleven and those with them. It doesn't necessarily extend to you or to me.
Also, in the context of the use of the word "witness" and the resulting events in the lives of those who were spoken to, it meant, "ye shall be my martyrs".

 

[mnw]

Well, I know that the Great Commission was given to the Eleven, and by extension, to the church of whom they were a part.

It seems, by your method of interpreting the Bible, we do not even have a Bible for ourselves, just what God has said to others.

I know certain portions were explicitly stated to be for certain groups or individuals, but not as much as you seem to say.

I'm not sure that the ministry of reconciliation that Paul speaks about refers also to all "believers". Kindly read it again, in context, paying attention to the pronouns.

I did read it again, as I have done many times before, I even read it kindly, and it still says the same thing.

The criteria to evangelise begins in verse 17 - if any be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away, all is become new, we have been reconciled to God and we have been given the ministry of reconciliation.

Where does it stop speaking about all those in Christ and localise itself?

So, you're saying that the gospel was spread to the UNKNOWN world through someone else ? Therein lies the rub. Now how do we know that the gospel preached by these "someone else's" is the correct gospel. Now, we know that Paul, Peter, John, James, Barnabas, Titus, Timothy, Mark, Luke, and all those personalities mentioned in the Bible all preached the right gospel as handed by the Lord Himself.
But now, how do we know we are preaching the right gospel ?
Look around you.
How many gospel versions are there ?
As many as there are Bible versions.
As many as there are denominations.
As many as there are Baptist divisions.

Who said anything about other Gospels? I am just saying Peter or Paul never went to England or America or Canada etc.

Believe what ?
The Catholics believe Jesus, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, Mary, the Saints, the Pope.
The Adventists believe in Works and the Law.
The Protestants say they preach the gospel, yet most of their members live lives which are not congruent to what they say they preach.
The Baptists preach a lot of things besides the gospels.
And they all believe.
So, believe what ?

A believer is, by definition, one who believes and the context is the true Gospel. Is it not?

There are no references to "us" to witness. Ye shall be witnesses of me addresses the Eleven and those with them. It doesn't necessarily extend to you or to me.

Right, I have heard that before and I simply do not agree with it. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Also, in the context of the use of the word "witness" and the resulting events in the lives of those who were spoken to, it meant, "ye shall be my martyrs".

I disagree. But that's okay. :thumbsup:

I just don't see your point of view. Are we just hood ornaments? Everything we do is ineffectual, we're just waiting to die. Is that it?

Anyway, time for Church. God bless and enjoy the rest of your day!

 

[Allan]

I'm with MNW and so far I haven't found anything in any of his postings I don't agree with thus far. However I will add this to the discussion concerning Pinoybaptist and our being witnesses with the regard to the Great commision and our ministry of Reconciliation. Look if you will I Thes. Chapter 1:

1Th 1:2 ¶ We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Notice if you will verse 3 and its referencs to their 'work' and 'labour' with 'patience' and it is due to these that bare witness of their salvation.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

Here Paul is illistrating even futher their undeniable salvaiton with was wrought of God because of the gospel and that it was more than mere intellectual ascention but life changing. For they followed (or better were partakers) with them and Christ in much affliction. But these 2 verses also connect the preceding and succeding ones to give great clarity as to the 'work' and 'labour' with 'patience' by which they are accounted partakers in the suffering of the Apostles and Christ. For they suffered for the Gospels sakes and so did this church... look on...

1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

WoW!! If only God could say such about our churches today. That 'we' are the example BECAUSE the Word of the Lord sounded out (proclaimed) not only in ... but EVERYWHERE you went!! It is BECAUSE of this that SHOWS what manner of entering we had ... life changing!! THis is a church preaching the Gospel everywhere they went and the Paul via the Holy Spirit declares they are an example to ALL. In other words we should all (churches) be doing this. But lest we think this might be some statements misconstrued we also see in Chapter 2 Paul stating that their affliction for the Gospel (Christs and the apostles for the gospel) is paralelled to that of the Church at Thessalonica and their affliction due to the Gospel they were proclaiming.

1Th 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Verse 14 shows they suffer like Christ Jesus, the apostles, and the other churches... Other churches?? Yes because they to were proclaiming the gospel to the salvation of the soul and shaking the very pillars hells kingdom and a new convert was drawn from the mirey clay into the cleansing hands of the Father. They were persecuted to keep people from coming to Christ!! We are givin a command to Go...and...Tell. Anyone or church who isn't is commiting high treason against their King and God through rebellion against His command and thereby rebellion against His very Person and authority over you are God and King!