Does Acts 2:38 REALLy teach water baptism requiredto be saved?

[pinoybaptist]

woke up at 2:30 am to study. then back to bed, then up at 6 am and looked out at the San Pablo skies. gray.
then went to this board, and my spirits are up.
my brother is pulling some strings and having fun, and when my brother is having fun, I'm having fun.:thumbsup::laugh:
ya gotta be baptized in order to be saved.
why cantcha'll see that ?

 

[OldRegular]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16:16

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3:21

The connection between baptism and being saved is undeniable.

Are you playing games with the word "saved", or are you saying that eternal salvation is by something in addition to Grace?

 

[OldRegular]

woke up at 2:30 am to study. then back to bed, then up at 6 am and looked out at the San Pablo skies. gray.
then went to this board, and my spirits are up.
my brother is pulling some strings and having fun, and when my brother is having fun, I'm having fun.:thumbsup::laugh:
ya gotta be baptized in order to be saved.
why cantcha'll see that ?

I thought so and posted before reading the above!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Actually, it could just as easily be translated as a middle verb, since the passive and middle have the same form. That's why the KJB, ESV and many other translations have "save yourselves." I think the middle is much more likely here.

Highly unlikely. ἑτέροις τε λόγοις πλείοσιν διεμαρτύρατο καὶ παρεκάλει αὐτοὺς λέγων Σώθητε ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς τῆς σκολιᾶς ταύτης translates almost verbatim into the English form as "And by many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, 'Be saved from this crooked generation.' " as it appears in the NASB. "Save yourselves" is simply bad translation. It cannot be structured to say that.

 

[John of Japan]

Highly unlikely. ἑτέροις τε λόγοις πλείοσιν διεμαρτύρατο καὶ παρεκάλει αὐτοὺς λέγων Σώθητε ἀπὸ τῆς γενεᾶς τῆς σκολιᾶς ταύτης translates almost verbatim into the English form as "And by many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, 'Be saved from this crooked generation.' " as it appears in the NASB. "Save yourselves" is simply bad translation. It cannot be structured to say that.

Okay, I have no idea how much Greek you really know, so I have to ask. Are you aware that (1) the middle and passive voices have the same form? (2) in any basic koine Greek grammar you learn early on that "the middle voice represents the subject as acting in some way that concerns itself" (New Testament Greek for Beginners, Machen, p. 57)?

Thus, contrary to your statements, "It cannot be structured to say that," the translation "save yourselves" is just as possible as "be saved." It is most definitely NOT a "bad translation." The rendering is up to the individual translator. Go back to your basic Greek grammar and try again.

Translations that render "save yourselves" include: KJV, MKJV, NKJV, ESV, RSV, WEB, ASV, Montgomery, TCNT, ライフライン訳, and many others in many languages.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Thus, contrary to your statements, "It cannot be structured to say that," the translation "save yourselves" is just as possible as "be saved."

Except for the fact that the rendering "save yourself" goes against the context, which is salvation of the sinner, not a personal action to garner safety for one's self from any earthly affliction, such as the "perverse generation" spoken of in v. 40. This is Peter's sermon in the Temple courts on the day of Pentecost. Surely you are not suggesting that, in the context of the passage, it is suggested the Peter was preaching salvation by works?

It is most definitely NOT a "bad translation." The rendering is up to the individual translator. Go back to your basic Greek grammar and try again.

I did. That's why I posted as I did.

Translations that render "save yourselves" include: KJV, MKJV, NKJV, ESV, RSV, WEB, ASV, Montgomery, TCNT, ライフライン訳, and many others in many languages.

And? That fact goes back your comment, "The rendering is up to the individual translator." It may not truly be a "bad" translation, but it is less than optimum. It flirts with conflict with the concept of man's depravity making him unable to respond to the gospel without God's intervention.

 

[TCassidy]

"Save yourselves" is simply bad translation. It cannot be structured to say that.

"Save yourselves" is a grammatically correct, but contextually incorrect rendering. The Greek word in question can be legitimately translated either as a middle or passive voice verb as both forms are the same. I prefer "be saved" over "save yourselves" but I cannot say that "save yourselves" is incorrect, grammatically. It isn't. It is, I believe, a contextually incorrect rendering of the word in question, which I believe is passive voice. But that is based on my theological understanding and not grammar. Also, the argument can be made that the intent was not to "save yourselves" in the eternal spiritual sense, but in the earthly, philosophical sense. "Get yourself out of that situation as it is potentially harmful to your fellowship (not relationship) with God."

 

[John of Japan]

Except for the fact that the rendering "save yourself" goes against the context, which is salvation of the sinner, not a personal action to garner safety for one's self from any earthly affliction, such as the "perverse generation" spoken of in v. 40. This is Peter's sermon in the Temple courts on the day of Pentecost. Surely you are not suggesting that, in the context of the passage, it is suggested the Peter was preaching salvation by works?

Of course not. I dealt with this in a previous post.

I did. That's why I posted as I did.

And? That fact goes back your comment, "The rendering is up to the individual translator." It may not truly be a "bad" translation, but it is less than optimum. It flirts with conflict with the concept of man's depravity making him unable to respond to the gospel without God's intervention.

As I said, I dealt with this in a previous post. I don't see the "save yourselves" statement as soteriological. "Save" has a wide range of meanings in Greek, most usages not being soteriological.

At a guess, since you didn't even seem to know what a middle voice is in Greek, you don't know Greek at all. You have good software and know how to copy and paste and consult your software lexicon. Period. Come back when you've studied it and actually understand the language.

 

[kyredneck]

woke up at 2:30 am to study. then back to bed, then up at 6 am and looked out at the San Pablo skies. gray.
then went to this board, and my spirits are up.
my brother is pulling some strings and having fun, and when my brother is having fun, I'm having fun.:thumbsup::laugh:
ya gotta be baptized in order to be saved.
why cantcha'll see that ?

Yes, very perceptive of you brother, with tongue in cheek I've intentionally attempted to provoke attention from baptism to the word 'save' (sozo).

 

[kyredneck]

"Save yourselves" is a grammatically correct, but contextually incorrect rendering. The Greek word in question can be legitimately translated either as a middle or passive voice verb as both forms are the same. I prefer "be saved" over "save yourselves" but I cannot say that "save yourselves" is incorrect, grammatically. It isn't. It is, I believe, a contextually incorrect rendering of the word in question, which I believe is passive voice. But that is based on my theological understanding and not grammar. Also, the argument can be made that the intent was not to "save yourselves" in the eternal spiritual sense, but in the earthly, philosophical sense. "Get yourself out of that situation as it is potentially harmful to your fellowship (not relationship) with God."

I basically agree with you, except that I believe that ‘save yourselves’ is exactly correct for the context.

I stated in an earlier post, “When Peter says, "Save yourselves", he is not saying "Send yourselves to heaven". He is saying, 'Escape the wrath to come'.” There’s nothing like applying a healthy dose of the ‘preterist modifier’ (gasp, I said that word, it’s bound to cause some convulsions) to shed light on “Save yourselves from this crooked generation” which is synonymous with:

…Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18:4,5

 

[OldRegular]

Interpretation of Scripture requires that one discern the difference between:

{1}prophecy regarding the Return of Jesus Christ followed by the General Resurrection and Judgment and

{2}prophecy related to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD!

 

[kyredneck]

Heeding the included instructions is always helpful. "Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand."

 

[OldRegular]

Heeding the included instructions is always helpful:

"Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand."

70AD wasn't far off but the rest has yet to happen!

 

[kyredneck]

As James pointed out, the Greek word for saved (sozo) has a wide range of meaning. It is even used for healing (delivery from sickness) in Matt. 9:21, etc. Here Peter doesn't say "saved from sin" or "Hell," but from "this...generation." That was the generation that crucified Christ, so if you stuck with that generation you could not believe in Christ and be "saved" from sin. Peter is saying, "Deliver yourselves from this generation so you can be soteriologically saved from sin."
And he that believeth and attends church will also be saved. It is the believing that saves, not the baptism, otherwise Jesus would have added, "and he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be condemned."

But Peter was talking about salvation in the sense of a physical salvation, not soteriological, because he referred to those in the ark who were physically saved from the flood. Again, the Greek word has a wide range of meaning. Context decides which meaning we should take. Those in the ark were already believers, they were simply physically saved. So if we are saved by a clear conscience as in this verse, it is not soteriological, but something else. The physical action of baptism, being compared to the physical salvation of the ark, is referring to being saved from a life of disobedience, which life has serious consequences to the believer.

Edited in: I edited, taking out a couple of extra returns, then clicked on "save" to "save" my changes. So this post is now eternally "saved," is it not?? :smilewinkgrin:

JoJ, I'm really appreciating this post, you've not told me anything in general I didn't already know, what's surprising to me is just how much I'm agreeing with you.

'Domestic duties' are keeping me occupied, I'm hoping to articulate some thoughts in your direction shortly.

 

[John of Japan]

JoJ, I'm really appreciating this post, you've not told me anything in general I didn't already know, what's surprising to me is just how much I'm agreeing with you.

'Domestic duties' are keeping me occupied, I'm hoping to articulate some thoughts in your direction shortly.

You're welcome. It's always nice to agree. :wavey:

I'll be waiting for your further comments.

 

[convicted1]

Too much of an accord going on in here..

Psst, Brother John, don't tell anyone I said this, but Brother KYR said your feet stink.....*****said in a whispering tone so none can hear*****:laugh::smilewinkgrin:

 

[John of Japan]

Too much of an accord going on in here..

Psst, Brother John, don't tell anyone I said this, but Brother KYR said your feet stink.....*****said in a whispering tone so none can hear*****:laugh::smilewinkgrin:

Hah! Actually, I'm built upside down: my feet smell and my nose runs. :laugh:

 

[Alcott]

They had to get themselves baptized in order to be saved! Why is that so hard to accept?

1) Because the thief on the cross to Jesus' right didn't get himself baptized, even though baptism for the remission of sins had been instigated.
2) Because Jesus was baptized under such instigation, and he had no sins to repent of
3) Because if someone repents and accepts Christ, and then a sniper shoots him dead when he's on the way to the baptistry, he has still believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and is therefore saved (Acts 16:31).

 

[Yeshua1]

"Save yourselves" is a grammatically correct, but contextually incorrect rendering. The Greek word in question can be legitimately translated either as a middle or passive voice verb as both forms are the same. I prefer "be saved" over "save yourselves" but I cannot say that "save yourselves" is incorrect, grammatically. It isn't. It is, I believe, a contextually incorrect rendering of the word in question, which I believe is passive voice. But that is based on my theological understanding and not grammar. Also, the argument can be made that the intent was not to "save yourselves" in the eternal spiritual sense, but in the earthly, philosophical sense. "Get yourself out of that situation as it is potentially harmful to your fellowship (not relationship) with God."

this is another passage that has 'thorny issues' associated with it, in that either way can be used to translate what was actually being said, bu tthen you get into a bit of "which way fits the contex being conveyed into the setting by the author?"

And do think a BIG thing here to keep in mind who peter was adressing, the jews who formally had rejected jesus as messiah, and whose concepts of baptism were derived from the OT scriptures!

 

[Yeshua1]

1) Because the thief on the cross to Jesus' right didn't get himself baptized, even though baptism for the remission of sins had been instigated.
2) Because Jesus was baptized under such instigation, and he had no sins to repent of
3) Because if someone repents and accepts Christ, and then a sniper shoots him dead when he's on the way to the baptistry, he has still believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and is therefore saved (Acts 16:31).

IF we followed that analysis some trying to make that water baptism ties into salvation, then why not communion also, for is it not also commanded to do in obedience unto the Lord?

refuse communion, lose salvation?