Does anyone ever yield on here?

[Luke2427]

What do you do if you have been defeated in a debate on BaptistBoard?

If your opponent makes a case that clearly proves your position is wrong, do you yield?

Do you say, "Up until now I thought I was right on this but now I see I am wrong"?

It seems that most people's m. o. is to just quit before admitting defeat; to simply stop posting and disappear. Or in frustration to start intimating that the person who is defeating you stupid, ignorant or unlearned to keep from humbling one's self.

It seems to me that the honorable thing to do would be either to say, "I was wrong and you are right", or at least, "You know, I don't know how to respond to that. You have stumped me. I'll have to think about it and get back to you."

Are we Baptists so proud that we cannot admit defeat? Are we such know-it-alls that in not one of many exchanges we embark on do we need to adjust our thinking?

Are we Baptists that arrogant?

 

[HAMel]

What do you do if you have been defeated in a debate on BaptistBoard?

If your opponent makes a case that clearly proves your position is wrong, do you yield?

Do you say, "Up until now I thought I was right on this but now I see I am wrong"?

It seems that most people's m. o. is to just quit before admitting defeat; to simply stop posting and disappear.

It seems to me that the honorable thing to do would be either to say, "I was wrong and you are right", or at least, "You know, I don't know how to respond to that. You have stumped me. I'll have to think about it and get back to you."

Are we Baptists so proud that we cannot admit defeat? Are we such know-it-alls that in not one of many exchanges we embark on do we need to adjust our thinking?

Are we Baptists that arrogant?

Opponent?

It has been my experience along the way that many pastors really don't have the time for those who don't understand, or need help understanding. On a forum such as this there is often an air of arrogance from those in the know toward those trying to find their way.

Puts me in mind of the old Jerry Clowers routine where the Professor's Driver ascended the stage to deliver the lecture as he had heard the same material for so long he had memorized it.

At the conclusion of the lecture a hand went up in the audience to ask a question. The driver, impersonating the Professor didn't have a clue as to how to answer so he belittled the individual and indicated the answer was so obvious that he would have "his" driver answer it.

Well, a funny story in it's entirety.

Not everyone needs to be challenged or considered an opponent. As for me, when I'm in over my head I just kinda sit there and be quiet. Best to sit in the corner and be thought ignorant than to open ones mouth and ease all doubt. All I have is simple faith along and what I pick up along the way.

Then again, you have some people who would gripe even if they were being hung with a new rope!

So, who are your questions directed? Those who have been to Bible College or laymen?

 

[Luke2427]

Opponent?

It has been my experience along the way that many pastors really don't have the time for those who don't understand, or need help understanding. On a forum such as this there is often an air of arrogance from those in the know toward those trying to find their way.

Puts me in mind of the old Jerry Clowers routine where the Professor's Driver ascended the stage to deliver the lecture as he had heard the same material for so long he had memorized it.

At the conclusion of the lecture a hand went up in the audience to ask a question. The driver, impersonating the Professor didn't have a clue as to how to answer so he belittled the individual and indicated the answer was so obvious that he would have "his" driver answer it.

Well, a funny story in it's entirety.

Not everyone needs to be challenged or considered an opponent. As for me, when I'm in over my head I just kinda sit there and be quiet. Best to sit in the corner and be thought ignorant than to open ones mouth and ease all doubt. All I have is simple faith along and what I pick up along the way.

Then again, you have some people who would gripe even if they were being hung with a new rope!

So, who are your questions directed? Those who have been to Bible College or laymen?

Do you find the word "opponent" that unpalatable?


op·po·nent
   /əˈpoʊnənt/ Show Spelled[uh-poh-nuhnt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who is on an opposing side in a game, contest, controversy, or the like; adversary.

It simply means two people on two opposite sides of the issue. They oppose each other on that particular matter.

Two boxers may be brothers and love one another deeply but they are opponents while in the ring.

Two people taking two opposite sides of an issue are opponents. What word would you use?

So, who are your questions directed? Those who have been to Bible College or laymen?

Both ought to display humility and admit they are wrong when their argument fails.

The proud are often not the professors but the drivers, aren't they.

I know I was a lot more arrogant when I was a lot less educated. Education has served to show me how little I really know.

Many who have little education think they know a lot more than they do.

On the other hand there certainly are humble laymen and arrogant people of erudition.

There's enough pride to go around, isn't there?

But if you take a position and engage in a debate with someone of another position- if your position is defeated then you ought to yield. That's the truly humble and honorable thing to do, isn't it?

 

[Amy.G]

Luke, is this your way of admitting defeat? :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

Luke you used the word defeat. Personally this is not a debate for personal gain where I have my view with my feet set in concrete hoping to save face at all costs. In this setting it is all about truth nothing more or less. I actually learn from many of the discussions and hope others do as well. To me to hold anything about the things of God in error rents my heart once I learn of it and if I have passed on any error I am most devastated with it and I must move to correct that error. I learn even from the most combative person with beliefs so out on the limb that even the lost know they are wrong. I have actually hunted people down to explain and correct an error that I had passed on to them in the past about something in the bible. So there is no intent to win a debate as it is put, but hopefully to learn and share the truth of the Lord for a closer walk in all godliness and honor towards Him along with the desire for others to experience that same walk in truth as the scripture gives.

 

[abcgrad94]

It seems that most people's m. o. is to just quit before admitting defeat; to simply stop posting and disappear. Or in frustration to start intimating that the person who is defeating you stupid, ignorant or unlearned to keep from humbling one's self.

It seems to me that the honorable thing to do would be either to say, "I was wrong and you are right", or at least, "You know, I don't know how to respond to that. You have stumped me. I'll have to think about it and get back to you."

There are different interpretations and viewpoints, many of which I never knew existed before BB. It is a wonderful ability, I think, to be able to clearly state your viewpoint without resorting to personal attacks. Those are the posts that I take to heart, that cause me to think, even if I'm inclined to disagree with them.

Then there are posts (like some recent ones that basically told me to shut up since I'm a woman) that just cause a reaction due to their arrogant nature. Those types of posters seem to be here to "prove everyone wrong" so they look better, not to learn and debate reasonably. Don't hold your breath waiting for a concession or apology.

 

[HankD]

What do you do if you have been defeated in a debate on BaptistBoard?

If your opponent makes a case that clearly proves your position is wrong, do you yield?

Do you say, "Up until now I thought I was right on this but now I see I am wrong"?

It seems that most people's m. o. is to just quit before admitting defeat; to simply stop posting and disappear. Or in frustration to start intimating that the person who is defeating you stupid, ignorant or unlearned to keep from humbling one's self.

It seems to me that the honorable thing to do would be either to say, "I was wrong and you are right", or at least, "You know, I don't know how to respond to that. You have stumped me. I'll have to think about it and get back to you."

Are we Baptists so proud that we cannot admit defeat? Are we such know-it-alls that in not one of many exchanges we embark on do we need to adjust our thinking?

Are we Baptists that arrogant?

I usually don't partner with someone in a debate when I am not settled about a matter in the first place.
Although it has happened - e.g. - the details of "The Day of The Lord".

However, I usually like to add the term "IMO" to my statements especially if a subject is a matter of preference
and not conviction or as in the case above, a matter of which I have an undecided position/positions.

Recently I did enter into a debate with the preterists here on the BB.

Subsequently, my conviction as a futurist is stronger now than before.

However, I did learn a lot about the hermeneutic of preterism.
I came to a better understanding of the logistics and credibility of their position and I told them so.

Personally I am not so interested in "winning" a debate but understanding the myriad positions of my brethren on a given topic.

To be honest, there have only been a few rare occasions in which I have even considered a change of opinion
and have never had a change of conviction (e.g. preterism vs. futurism) concerning a debate here at the BB.

I have definitely learned, but not only that, have come to appreciate the sincere desire of all to know the truth.

No one I know of has ever said, "well, today I think I want to become a heretic or immerse myself in error, let's see, what shall it be?".

HankD

 

[Allan]

Yes.. many on here do and have.. Myself included.

However the issue is.. is it really about winning and defeating?

I have noted in some of your threads that I have participated in you state what you 'think' and regardless of what answer is given, you toss it aside and presume your view irrefutable. However that is not necessarily the case so I wouldn't be so quick to throw up my hands and cry - Winner! (Yes, I'm being a bit extreme here, but it is just for imagery)

Another thing you need to remember is that on here many have other things in Real Life that might hinder them from being on here hourly or daily or maybe even keep them away for a few days. So just because someone has not answered you 'yet' does not mean you have 'defeated' them.. Personally though I must wonder about your intentions in debating.. are you looking to 'defeat' your opponent or convey the truth in a loving way that brings a person to that knowledge of truth you might know? It is entirely possible to win an argument and loose a brother.. thus their apparent 'defeat' is really your loss.

I do however find it quite humorous that you presume just because a person isn't answering immediately you presume they themselves think they are defeated OR because they don't answer in a way 'you' agree with, you wrongly assume you have made an irrefutable point.. It 'seems' to me that your entire manner is quite self exalting and lacking in humility.

Let me give you an example of an incorrect assumption..
The discussion between myself and you regarding darkness and light/death and alive.. To me, you have failed miserably to answer my argument in any satisfactory or biblical way.. in fact it appeared to me that you didn't really deal with my argument at all. Does that mean you didn't answer it? No. It just means that to me, you did very poorly but to you you might have done a superb job. Thus the truth is... what I assume isn't necessarily correct.

This isn't about winning or loosing but about conveying our views in the most biblical way we understand or know.. if someone changes their views, then Great! But our answers are not to just 'win' or 'defeat' but to also be instructive to those who would read the posts after us.

 

[jaigner]

I would absolutely admit it if I were wrong about something.

However, much of what we debate theologically is more nuanced. Most, if not all, of us wouldn't argue Jesus' divinity/humanity or the virgin birth or bodily resurrection. Many of us would debate a cohesive description of atonement or justification or regeneration. And that is good. When we discuss these things, it sharpens us, reaffirms our belief or causes us to reexamine and adjust.

What is particularly baffling is the number of people on here who are unwilling to accept other points of view graciously, without judging, drawing lines in the sand, essentially (or sometimes literally) telling people, "Nope, you're wrong" or even worse, "You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Scripture."

When we hold such interpretations with a closed fist, they are no longer living, breathing understandings that are open to the Spirit's leading, they become stagnant, suffocated credos that we are unwilling to examine.

So, next time someone questions you on the nuances of women in ministry, mode of church governance, issues of Christian freedom or clear uncertainties, keep your views open in your palms, graciously engaging other committed Christians, instead of separating yourself.

 

[Tom Butler]

I once thought I was wrong in a discussion with Allan. But I was mistaken.

 

[Allan]

I once thought I was wrong in a discussion with Allan. But I was mistaken.

Yes you were! :BangHead: :tongue3:

Ok.. that is all I have time for.. c-ya

 

[freeatlast]

One of the questions stated this;
I do not think anyone should ever disagree with anyone because feelings might be hurt

If the prophets, apostles and most of all the Lord Himself held this view we would not have a bible. Also we would have to deny the command to go and tell and no one would ever get saved.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke you used the word defeat. Personally this is not a debate for personal gain where I have my view with my feet set in concrete hoping to save face at all costs. In this setting it is all about truth nothing more or less. I actually learn from many of the discussions and hope others do as well. To me to hold anything about the things of God in error rents my heart once I learn of it and if I have passed on any error I am most devastated with it and I must move to correct that error. I learn even from the most combative person with beliefs so out on the limb that even the lost know they are wrong. I have actually hunted people down to explain and correct an error that I had passed on to them in the past about something in the bible. So there is no intent to win a debate as it is put, but hopefully to learn and share the truth of the Lord for a closer walk in all godliness and honor towards Him along with the desire for others to experience that same walk in truth as the scripture gives.

Boy, I love you guys, but some of you are really touchy about words. Defeat is the goal when it comes to debate- not to defeat a person but an ideal. And it doesn't have to be the opposing ideal that is defeated- it can be my own. But when victory is achieved in a debate it means that truth has surfaced and error has been eradicated.

Some of you cannot seem to differentiate between debating ideals and debating people. No one is advocating defeating people but ideals.

For example, I want to defeat the ideals of mormonism. I do that in part because I care about the mormon who holds the ideal I am trying to defeat. I also do it because I want Truth to prevail.

Don't be so sensitive about words. Defeat, opponents, these are good words concerning debate.

 

[Luke2427]

I usually don't partner with someone in a debate when I am not settled about a matter in the first place.
Although it has happened - e.g. - the details of "The Day of The Lord".

However, I usually like to add the term "IMO" to my statements especially if a subject is a matter of preference
and not conviction or as in the case above, a matter of which I have an undecided position/positions.

Recently I did enter into a debate with the preterists here on the BB.

Subsequently, my conviction as a futurist is stronger now than before.

However, I did learn a lot about the hermeneutic of preterism.
I came to a better understanding of the logistics and credibility of their position and I told them so.

Personally I am not so interested in "winning" a debate but understanding the myriad positions of my brethren on a given topic.

To be honest, there have only been a few rare occasions in which I have even considered a change of opinion
and have never had a change of conviction (e.g. preterism vs. futurism) concerning a debate here at the BB.

I have definitely learned, but not only that, have come to appreciate the sincere desire of all to know the truth.

No one I know of has ever said, "well, today I think I want to become a heretic or immerse myself in error, let's see, what shall it be?".

HankD

Very good. My sentiments as well.

The point of this thread is to get us to examine ourselves and see if we ever say, "You know what, you are right and I am wrong."

That is a glorious thing because it means you have just grown- you've learned something new and become a wiser and more knowledgeable person; a sharper tool in Christ's service.

Some stay dull and well nigh useless in Christ's service because they cannot grow, because they cannot admit they are wrong when plainly shown that they are.

This is an unfortunate characteristic.

 

[glfredrick]

I am always willing to change my position by a proper exposition of Scripture. When in the pulpit, I made widely known that even one of our children could correct me if they could show me a proper biblical explanation of why I was incorrect in my stance. Over the years, several took me up on the proposition, and did show me something.

We, as humans, however knowledgeable and sure in our information, can be wrong, mislead, misinformed, or outright deceitful in the way we handle God's truths. That is partly why the Bereans were commended by Paul for their willingness to check all things according to the Scriptures.

But, that being said, I find on this board and many other places where theological and doctrinal arguments or discussions occur that the manner in which Scripture is handled makes what might be an otherwise good point wrong, in that the context, nor the genre, nor the greater implications of the text are considered against the overall message of the Word before someone tosses a verse out as "proof" that the other party is incorrect.

The sovereignty/free will debate going on in another post, for instance. Proof-texts are tossed out on each side, when in fact there are not really two sides to that issue according to God. According to God, there CANNOT BE two sides! God is not divided, which means that in all likelihood both sides that are polarized in their thinking are likely missing some key element or implication of God in the points made, especially when one text of Scripture is offered as an "antidote" or "proof" against another text! That simply cannot be! Saying so makes God to be a liar, who's Word is not sure.

No, it is we who have the problems in reconciling issues, and because of that WE can be WRONG.

I'll say so when I am. I'll change my mind when Scripture dictates, no matter the "theological or doctrinal lens" that I look through. That is because FIRST, I am a follower of Christ who is called to "rightly divide the word of truth..." and SECOND, because I understand correctly that God is not and can not be divided, so if we are -- we are wrong.

 

[Amy.G]

The point of this thread is to get us to examine ourselves and see if we ever say, "You know what, you are right and I am wrong."

Ok. You first. :tongue3:

 

[Tom Butler]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
I once thought I was wrong in a discussion with Allan. But I was mistaken.

Yes you were! :BangHead: :tongue3:

Oops! Maybe I WAS wrong to think I was mistaken.

 

[HankD]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
I once thought I was wrong in a discussion with Allan. But I was mistaken.



Oops! Maybe I WAS wrong to think I was mistaken.

So you were wrong about being mistaken about being wrong.

Hmm, OK then do two wrongs and a mistaken make a right?

:tongue3:

HankD

 

[webdog]

Luke, is this your way of admitting defeat? :laugh:

That was my first thought, too

I'll tell you guys when it happens :laugh:

 

[Old Union Brother]

I very much enjoy reading the debate that goes on on the board. Although I am new to the board, you all have taught me a great deal. The discussions that take place have caused me to read scripture closer and deeper.

This discussion brings to mind what Paul wrote:
I Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

With that said let all of our discussion and debate be done unto edifying the one that hung on the cross and set us free from sin and death.