Does Arminianism Lead to Open Theism?

[Winman]

If God foreknows something will happen how can it be otherwise?

I believe that is what Frame means when he writes:

It is true that it will absolutely happen, because God's foreknowledge is infallible. But that doesn't mean God necessarily determined that event will happen. God allows men to make their own choice whether they believe on Jesus or not.

That is not to say that God does not draw and influence all men, he certainly does. In fact, no man can come to Jesus unless he is DRAWN and TAUGHT by God (Jhn 6:44,45). But the man has the responsibility to HEAR and LEARN. You can't learn without a teacher, but you must also pay attention and listen to learn from that teacher.

But foreknowledge does not necessitate that what is foreknown was caused by the person foreknowing that event.

An analogy;

I know that the Sun will rise at 6:47 A.M. tomorrow where I live (I just looked it up). Does my certain foreknowledge cause the Sun to rise tomorrow at 6:47 A.M.? Of course not.

God simply knows what a man will do. If a man believes on Christ in his lifetime, that is what God foreknows. If that same man never believes on Jesus in his lifetime, that is what God foreknows.

 

[OldRegular]

An analogy;

I know that the Sun will rise at 6:47 A.M. tomorrow where I live (I just looked it up). Does my certain foreknowledge cause the Sun to rise tomorrow at 6:47 A.M.? Of course not.

Do you know the sun will "rise" tomorrow or are you assuming it will "rise" based on your experience!

 

[BobRyan]

If God foreknows something will happen how can it be otherwise?

as compared to --

The logic in the quote in the OP is flawed because it presumes that the one evaluating the options, like the reader, is God.

The first question to be answered (in terms of the obvious) is

1. Does God have true libertarian freedom?

2. Does God the Son have it - even while on earth as the God-man?

3. Did God know everything Christ would do?

The Arminian Answer to all of the above is "yes".

The Calvinist answers is confusion.

The next question is "HOW" can God (and yes even Christ as God The Son as the God-man while on Earth) have true libertarian free will IF He knows all that the Son would do as Christ on Earth?

The answer? "It is TOUGH to BE God!"

Rather than the answer being "Whatever limits a Calvinist would need to get the job done is the same limit on God" -- which I do not accept.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Do you know the sun will "rise" tomorrow or are you assuming it will "rise" based on your experience!

Excellent point! I do not absolutely know the Sun will rise tomorrow, the Lord could come before then.

My foreknowledge is fallible. but God's is not.

Nevertheless, just because you know something will happen, or that a person will make a certain choice does not mean you caused it.

If the world continues for a few years, I know all of my children will commit sin. Does this mean I caused them to commit sin? Absurd.

 

[OldRegular]

Excellent point! I do not absolutely know the Sun will rise tomorrow, the Lord could come before then.

My foreknowledge is fallible. but God's is not.

Nevertheless, just because you know something will happen, or that a person will make a certain choice does not mean you caused it.

If the world continues for a few years, I know all of my children will commit sin. Does this mean I caused them to commit sin? Absurd.

You need to read again the small print in the OP!

 

[OldRegular]

The logic in the quote is flawed because it presumes that the one evaluating the options, like the reader, is God.

The first question to be answered (in terms of the obvious) is

1. Does God have true libertarian freedom?

2. Does God the Son have it - even while on earth as the God-man?

3. Did God know everything Christ would do?

The Arminian Answer to all of the above is "yes".

I don't know what you mean by libertarian freedom, or free will, but God cannot do anything contrary to His nature, same is true of God the Son.

Yes God knew everything that Jesus Christ would do!

The Calvinist answers is confusion.

That statement is totally meaningless.

The next question is "HOW" can God (and yes even Christ as God The Son as the God-man while on Earth) have true libertarian free will IF He knows all that the Son would do as Christ on Earth?

I don't know what you mean by libertarian freedom, or free will, but God cannot do anything contrary to His nature, same is true of God the Son. Do you really understand that God is One God. If you understand that then you can understand that communion between God the Father and God the Son is perfect!

The answer? "It is TOUGH to BE God!"

That is an arrogant but nonsensical statement.

Rather than the answer being "Whatever limits a Calvinist would need to get the job done is the same limit on God" -- which I do not accept.

in Christ,

Bob

Again the above statement makes no sense. Apparently your understanding of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace is faulty but then so is your understanding of Scripture. But then if you understood Scripture you would understand the Doctrines of Grace!

 

[Winman]

You need to read again the small print in the OP!

I think that small print is a bunch of baloney. God simply knows what a man will do. If the man writes that book in 2013, that is what God always knew. If the man does not write that book in 2013, that is what God always knew.

God is supernatural. He can know what men will do before they choose it.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

James 1:13 tells us that God never tempts any man to sin, so God did not cause or tempt Pharaoh to disobey him when he commanded Pharaoh to let his people go.

Foreknowledge explains how God can use Pharaoh's rebellion to glorify himself and show his power to the world without being the author of sin. God knew for a certainty that Pharaoh would not let his people go until he showed great signs and wonders. God knew then that Pharaoh would let the Hebrews go. But God also knew Pharaoh would pursue after Moses and the Hebrews, and chase them into the Red Sea where God would destroy Pharaoh.

Again, it is because of foreknowledge that God can use the evil acts of men without being the author of sin. God did not cause Judas to betray Jesus, but he knew he would. God did not cause the Jews to conspire against Jesus and turn him over to the Romans to be crucified, but he knew they would. God simply allowed these men to do what they freely chose to do, and then God used good to overcome evil.

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

The reason Calvinism has so much difficulty with the problem of evil is because they try to deny God's foreknowledge. HUGE ERROR.

 

[Rippon]

just because you know something will happen, or that a person will make a certain choice does not mean you caused it.

In your understanding, does God cause anything to happen?

 

[OldRegular]

I think that small print is a bunch of baloney. God simply knows what a man will do. If the man writes that book in 2013, that is what God always knew. If the man does not write that book in 2013, that is what God always knew.

God is supernatural. He can know what men will do before they choose it.

God doesn't make mistakes so if He knows what is going to happen it must happen.

 

[Rippon]

Too many these days are watering-down what they conceive of as God. But I have to remind them that He is Lord of everything and everyone in the universe. God is no mere bystander with an unerring knowledge of the future. The Lord is the main actor in the pages of history.

What did JB Phillips write? Your God Is Too Small. And he wasn't even a Calvinist.

 

[quantumfaith]

Too many these days are watering-down what they conceive of as God. But I have to remind them that He is Lord of everything and everyone in the universe. God is no mere bystander with an unerring knowledge of the future. The Lord is the main actor in the pages of history.

What did JB Phillips write? Your God Is Too Small. And he wasn't even a Calvinist.

Rippon,

I am sure there is truth in your statement that many "water down what they conceive of as god, but not here in BB land.

 

[Yeshua1]

And what theology is it that you claim I support?

And I have NEVER said man can come to God without God enabling him. I challenge you to show where I have ever said that. That is a false accusation and you should apologize unless you can prove I have ever said such a thing.

Let's see if you are a real man. Either prove I have said man can come to God without God's enabling or apologize.

I will be waiting for your proof that I have said man has the ability to come to God without God enabling him, or your apology for making a false accusation against me.

You do deny original Sin, and you hold that some in the OT were rightoius bby keeping the Law, and that men seek God by their own violation, correct?

 

[BobRyan]

Too many these days are watering-down what they conceive of as God. But I have to remind them that He is Lord of everything and everyone in the universe. God is no mere bystander with an unerring knowledge of the future. The Lord is the main actor in the pages of history.
.

You appear to be making the Arminian argument.

God is big enough to make sweeping statements about wanting all to come to repentance without anyone running after him to 'downsize" His word to fit their limited-gospel limited-love ideas.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

You do deny original Sin, and you hold that some in the OT were rightoius bby keeping the Law, and that men seek God by their own violation, correct?

You said I believe a man can come to God without God enabling him. That is a absolute lie, I have NEVER said that.

Now, you show where I have ever said such a thing, or you apologize if you are man enough to admit your error.

I don't want to hear a bunch of dumb questions, show your proof or apologize.

 

[OldRegular]

Rippon,

I am sure there is truth in your statement that many "water down what they conceive of as god, but not here in BB land.

It pains me to disagree with you so often but this is one more time.

 

[Winman]

God doesn't make mistakes so if He knows what is going to happen it must happen.

It depends on what you mean by "must". Will it happen for a certainty? Absolutely YES. Does that mean it was caused by God to happen? Not necessarily. I say that because there are absolutely many things God has told us he has determined will happen, and they will happen.

But not all things are determined by God. God never determines that any man commit sin. God does not even tempt men to sin. Now, that said, it is obvious God allows sin to occur, that cannot be denied. Sometimes he allows sin to occur for a long period of time, and sometimes he kills a man or prevents sin the first time it occurs. That is all according to his best judgment.

God did not determine that Pharaoh would be rebellious. Rebellion is sin, so God would never tempt or cause Pharaoh to be obstinate and rebellious. But God in his foreknowledge knew that Pharaoh would be extremely stubborn and rebellious.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

Now, God did not determine verse 19. He did not determine that Pharaoh would be obstinate and rebellious, otherwise God contradicts his own word that he never tempts any man to sin.

But God did determine verse 20, he determined he would show great signs and wonders and these would influence Pharaoh to let the children of Israel go.

But God knew that Pharaoh would turn and become obstinate again, and his heart would become harder and harder against God.

And God knew Pharaoh would pursue Moses to destroy the children of Israel.

And so God was just to punish Pharaoh before the world and show his power.

But Pharaoh did not HAVE to be rebellious. God did not cause him to be rebellious.

Likewise, God did not cause the devil and the powers of darkness to crucify Jesus. In fact, we are told that if the princes of this world understood what God was doing, they would not have crucified Jesus.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

God did not cause the devil and the princes of darkness to kill Jesus. This verse clearly shows they had choice. If they had understood how Jesus dying on the cross defeated the devil, they WOULD NOT HAVE crucified him.

Did God determine that Jesus would die on the cross for our sins? Absolutely, Jesus willingly allowed himself to be taken and crucified.

Did God determine that the Jews and Romans would kill Jesus? NO, God NEVER tempts any man to sin.

God can do all of this because he can foreknow what men will do before they actually do so. That does not mean he caused their actions.

 

[OldRegular]

You said I believe a man can come to God without God enabling him. That is a absolute lie, I have NEVER said that.

Now, you show where I have ever said such a thing, or you apologize if you are man enough to admit your error.

I don't want to hear a bunch of dumb questions, show your proof or apologize.

Does God enable all people? If so why do not all come.

If He does not enable all people, why not?

 

[OldRegular]

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart

God did not determine that Pharaoh would be rebellious. Rebellion is sin, so God would never tempt or cause Pharaoh to be obstinate and rebellious. But God in his foreknowledge knew that Pharaoh would be extremely stubborn and rebellious.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

Now, God did not determine verse 19. He did not determine that Pharaoh would be obstinate and rebellious, otherwise God contradicts his own word that he never tempts any man to sin.

So what does the following Scripture say?.

Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3. And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 14:4. And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

 

[Winman]

So what does the following Scripture say?.

Exodus 4:21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3. And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 14:4. And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Well, God did harden Pharaohs heart in that he contended with him.

An analogy; If you have been married a long time, then you know your wife's HOT BUTTONS. You know certain subjects that will immediately make her angry. It could be saying something bad about her mother or father, or one of her sisters, etc...

You KNOW what I am saying, every married man knows this. And it works the other way as well, your wife knows exactly how to "tick you off"

Well, this is how God hardened Pharaoh. He KNEW Pharaoh did not like being told what to do. The Pharaohs believed they were descended from the gods, they were extremely proud, and this particular Pharaoh was perhaps one of the most proud men who has ever lived.

I mean, when you see fire raining down from heaven, wouldn't you give up and realize Moses was sent from God? So Pharaoh was not just a little stubborn or obstinate, he was incredibly stubborn and obstinate. He MUST have been a Calvinist. :laugh:

So, all God had to do was contend with him. Pharaoh was used to having his own way 100% of the time like a spoiled brat. He did not like Moses telling him to let the Israelites go, and he did not like God's plagues. He just got angrier and angrier.

So this is what is meant. But God did not cause him to sin, God never tempts any man to sin. God simply knew he would get angrier and become more and more obstinate, more and more resolved to fight against God.

 

[quantumfaith]

It pains me to disagree with you so often but this is one more time.

I "feel" your pain.