Does being sinless make one holy?

[Helen]

Preacher, funny thing about imaginations -- we cannot imagine anything new. We can only 're-create' or put things we already know about together in different ways.

But there will be a NEW creation. That is not something we can fathom. Our imaginations cannot go where our experience has not already taken us. The new creation will not be a recombination of this creation's elements. It will be new.

Explain breathing air to a trout. That will work just about as well as us trying to use our imaginations to construct what the new creation will be like.

I know God well enough to know nothing will be wasted from what we have learned here, however. I know that Jesus told us that eternal life is KNOWING the Father and the Son, and that would not be something done in 'time'.

In the meanwhile, we live in time, and our energies and resources need to be devoted here to doing what He would have us do each day. I'm not sure that trying to spend our time and energies imagining what is essentially unimaginable is a good use of our time.

As far as what we sing -- that is up to each person. Just because one is a writer of songs has nothing to do with the correctness of the lyrics! "Hark, the Herald Angels Sing" -- lovely song. But in the Bible, they don't sing anything to the Shepherds, do they? They TELL them the news and then praise God. Jesus used many earthly images to help us long for heaven, but they cannot possibly explain heaven. Do we sing songs about the mustard tree in the sky? No, of course not! We much prefer the image of mansion! But they were both used....

 

[preacher]

We were made "new" when we came to believe in Christ,though I know thats not how you see "new".
Eternal life ISknowing the Father & the Son..NOW, in the present.
I don't know about recombination, but I do know Israel was promised a land...a land they've never fully occupied. here, on this earth, not on a different earth. It will be made new, fresh, clean with the curse lifted.
If I have a flower, i plant it in the ground, it grows & produces buds which blossom into the flowers. Then I take that same plant, cut it to the ground, water the stalk, prune it as it grows again, it produces new buds, which blossom into new flowers. Same plant, different time. But also New, & if I did my part right, better.

You are right about wasting time, but we all I'm sure do lots of different things that as far as furthering the cause of Christ, are a waste of time.
As far as the singing...I threw that at Geneer just to give her something out of left field. I know we do lots of things in worship & at home that aren't biblicle.

 

[Gina B]

In the meanwhile, we live in time, and our energies and resources need to be devoted here to doing what He would have us do each day. I'm not sure that trying to spend our time and energies imagining what is essentially unimaginable is a good use of our time.

I don't feel it's unimaginable or not a good use of time. The nature of God, us, how we relate, is wrapped up in the line of questioning I'm asking.

"What's important to you often isn't important to me, what's important to me often isn't important to you, and when we die, we'll find the important stuff was being asked by that third guy anyhow."

 

[Gina B]

Whew, that got quiet fast! I've got the same topic going on elsewhere, will have to check and see if it's Sunday or if I skeered everyone off!

This is my next thought. Actually, a number of thoughts.

Today, the topic of angels and what they do was brought up. The SS teacher brought up that they serve God and praise God.
Sounds a lot like what we will do?
Do you think there is any credence to the idea that we will become angels, or like angels, having the same purpose?
Another idea thrown out was in first Genesis, when
God said "let us create man in our own image". Who was God speaking to? Were angels created in his image?
Last related question as to the nature/form of the Trinity, men, and angels. Is it true that Jesus was never referred to as the Son of God at any other time period than referring to his form here on earth? Why does it say in Revelation that he will have a new name, making it seem as if he isn't really a part of God until he is given "the name exalted above all names"?

 

[Helen]

I would suggest your Sunday School teacher does not know Hebrews 1:14 -- "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

We will not become angels and will not be like angels except in the respect that we will not marry or be given in marriage (as per Jesus). Rather, the Holy Spirit is conforming us to the likeness of Christ Himself (Romans 8:29)

God, as a Trinity, is speaking within Himself when He talks of creating man in 'our' image. We are not told whether or not angels share this honor.

The writer of Hebrews refers back to Psalm 2 when describing the Person of the Son:
"You are my son; today I have become your Father." This, at the most, implies a change in relationship for awhile, and not the formation of something new.

If you read the beginning of Hebrews you will read that the universe was created through Christ. Colossians 1:16 states that by him, Jesus, all things were created. He is the Creator and has been God from all eternity. He claimed the name I AM several times in the Gospel of John, although modern translations do not say that clearly.

The writer of Proverbs 30 knew God had a Son...

 

[preacher]

The same purpose, kinda'. But add to that fellowship. Thats one of the reasons man was created wasn't it? I haven't seen that mentioned of angels. We'll serve, & praise, & worship, but don't forget we're sons & daughters. Angels are not.
God was speaking to Christ & I'm sure also the Holy Ghost. Have to remember all 3 were active in the creation.And I'm also sure some of the angels we're in His "image". Remember Lucifer was the most beautiful of His creations at one time, well nothing can be more beautiful than God, but that would make me think that at least some were in His image. Oh & just a footnote...the Word doesn't speak of all angels having wings ,which seems to have been the prevelent thought down through history, at least in artwork.
Son of God...I can only find it mentioned in the OT once...Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
He is refered to as THE Angel of the Lord many times. Not just an angel, but The Angel.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
If this is the verse you are refering to it alludes back to everything being NEW. Now I'm not sure it means His name or the new name He will give us. The word used for name (onoma) also means
authority,or character.
Don't fret, Christ has always been & will always be a part of God. Your heart was formed withyou in the womb & it will still be a part of you till you're called home. Same thing.
Oh & the reason I tend to think it's the giving of our new name is that At The Name Of JESUS, every Knee Shall Bow, and Every Tongue Shall Confess!!!
Another footnote, just for you....did ya know that the name James, in the Hebrew form is Jacob, which translates Israel!

 

[Gina B]

Oh & just a footnote...the Word doesn't speak of all angels having wings ,which seems to have been the prevelent thought down through history, at least in artwork.

I think it mentions cherubim and seraphim having wings, and of others flying, but I guess you don't have to have wings to fly! Jesus ascended and it makes no mention of wings, right?

Son of God...I can only find it mentioned in the OT once...Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Thank you! That makes the SS teacher mistaken, or misunderstood by me!

He is refered to as THE Angel of the Lord many times. Not just an angel, but The Angel.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

There are numerous references to THE angel of the LORD, even an angel of God in Revelation. The one in Revelation would SEEM to be referring to Jesus, as mentioned in the verse, but even that doesn't make sense, for why would Jesus say he is writing the name of his God, calling him MY God, is Jesus is God? I could understand if that was done during his Sonship, but after his exaltation and return? Just seems odd.

If this is the verse you are refering to it alludes back to everything being NEW. Now I'm not sure it means His name or the new name He will give us. The word used for name (onoma) also means
authority,or character.

I think I was wrong on that. I had thought that there was a reference to Jesus himself being given a new name, being given the name "exalted" above all, but maybe I was reading a different translation because I can't find it now. I try to stick with the KJV because of such things! It's so frustrating to come across stuff...the church really needs to pick one and stick with it!

Anyhow, back to the main point. Why are we here? What is our purpose? I can't imagine that this short time on earth is our main purpose.

We were created for.... ?
What is our nature?
I take it an eternal purpose.
For His glory, yes, but how will we glorify Him? What should we be preparing ourselves for? What is the purpose of what we are created to be...sinless and immortal?
What DID Adam and Eve do until they sinned? Who were they, and what was their purpose?
That couldn't have changed, as we're to be restored to it.

 

[Helen]

If you look at what Jesus said were the two foundational commandments, they are to love: first God and then our neighbor. We were created to love. On that commandment to love hang all the law and the prophets.

We glorify God here on earth through faith and obedience, both of which result in His love being poured out through us to those around us.

As far as 'later' goes, we have enough to deal with now. Hearing "Well done, good and faithful servant" is all I want. That is all I am 'preparing' myself for..

Philippians 1:6 says GOD will finish the good work He started. Thus, any preparation is on His part and the obedience is what must be on mine.

To speculate upon what we cannot know at this time, such as Adam and Eve's occupations before sin, is a waste of time. But their purpose would have been that of all of us: to love.

 

[Gina B]

Why am I getting the hint that you think my topic is a waste of time?

Thanks to all who participated. Preacher, shooting you a quick link!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Does being sinless make one holy?

If that's the only way to make one holy, then we're all doomed, because none of us is sinless.

 

[preacher]

Gina, Saw your link,Thank You.
Now down to business...And as I used to state back a couple years ago, if I'm wrong on something...show me, it ain't gonna hurt my feelings none at all!!
First things First...JohnV, You are absolutly RIGHT!
Helen..Your first two statements I absolutly agree with & I've been in & out of the board enough to know you are an exellent example of being used to let His Love touch others. Your 3rd about "later" makes me wonder. You say we have enough to deal with now, True but don't we try to plan ahead(in this walk of life) not get caught short...for the future. Whats the difference in that or taking some time to dwell on what our future life with Christ will be like. I would find it hard to believe you don't wonder about it from time to time. The 4th,from Phil., well obediance IS part of the preparation.. The 5th, & please don't be offended, it is never a waste of time to speculate on anything concerning our Father. Past, Present...or Future.
We ARE told to dwell on the things of God, it doesn't state just the present things!

Besides all this....noone can convince me that my God doesn't have a sense of humor...& an imagination...just look at the platypus!!

 

[Helen]

Thanks, preacher. My point of view is very much a result of having been exposed to 'imaging' and 'imagination' in a previous church. We cannot conjure up Christ. But that is what one church had us trying to do (a Lutheran church, by the way...).

In the same way we cannot conjure up heaven! We perhaps feel the longing and sense the invitation when we feel that lump in our throat at something beautiful, or touching. But at the most what we can sense is only a shadow of the real thing, and not the thing itself. We can only imagine something as a form of what we have already experienced. So heaven is "more beautiful" or "more friendly" or "more joyful." We can only try to extend what poor bits we have here on earth.

Cast a shadow on a sheet of paper with a light. Trace it and cut it out. Turn it sideways and cast that shadow -- now a line -- on another piece of paper. Do your best to cut it out. Turn it sideways and cast the shadow. All you have is a dot.

Unwind a dot from anywhere. It will be a line, but of unknown length. Unwind the line and it will be a shadow, but of unknown shape. Unwind the shadow and it will be an object, of unknown identity.

Unwind the object. Go one more dimension.

We can't even imagine that, can we?

All we have here are lines and dots. An occasional bit of a shadow, really. But the thing itself -- life knowing Christ intimately, life in heaven, reigning with Him -- not to mention how all this plays out through eternity -- a whole 'nother dimension, if you will -- are only hinted at in our life on earth here.

Barry and I have been reading some of Lewis' essays, and, with your permission, I would like to quote from the end of "The Weight of Glory", which I think is quite applicable here:

------

Nature is mortal; we shall outlive her. When all the suns and nebulae have passed away, each one of you will still be alive. Nature is only the image, the symbol; but it is the symbol Scripture invites me to use. We are summoned to pass in through Nature, beyond her, into that splendour which she fitfully reflects.

And in there, in beyond Nature, we shall eat of the tree of life. At present, if we are reborn in Christ, the spirit in us lives directly on God; but the mind andm still more, the body receives life from Him at a thousand removes -- through our ancestors, through our food, through the elements. The fain, far-off results of those energies which God's crative rapture implaned in matter when He made the worlds are what we now call physical pleasures; and even thus filtered, they are too much for our present management. What would it be to taste at the fountainhead that stream of which even these lower reaches prove so intoxicating? Yet that, I believe, is what lies before us. The whole man is to drink joy from the fountain of joy...In light of our present specialised and depraved appetites, we cannot imagine this torrens voluptatis, and I warn everyone most seriously not to try. But it must be mentioned to drive out thoughts even more misleading -- thoughts that what is saved is a mere ghost, or that the risen body lives in numb insensibility. The body was made for the Lord, and these dismal fancies are wide of the mark.

Meanwhile, the cross comes before the crown and tomorrow is a Monday morning. A cleft has opened in the pitiless walls of the world, and we are invited to follow our great Captian inside. The following Him is, of course, the essential point. That being so, it may be asked what practical use there is in the speculations which I have been indulging. I can thik of at least one such use. It may be possible for each to think too much of his own potential glory hereafter; it is hardly possible for him to think too often or too deeply about that of his neighbour. The load, the weight, or burden of my neighbour's glory should be laid on my back, a load so heavy that only humility can carry it, and the backs of the proud will be broken. It is a serious thing to...remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities , it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilisations -- these are mortal, and their life to ours is as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit -- immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. This does not mean we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously -- no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption. And our charity must be a real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner -- no mere tolerance, or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment. ...If he is your Christian neighbor...in him also Christ vere latitat -- the glorifier and the glorified, Glory Himself, is truly hidden.

 

[Gina B]

Nobody is having vain imaginations to the exclusion of a suffering world about future glories or anything else.

I set out to question our nature's, God's nature, how then, now, and hereafter all relate.

Guess it's worth giving up discussion for the sake of peace, but I am disappointed in that assumption.

At least my fudge is waiting to console me, actually it's SCREAMING my name!

 

[Helen]

I set out to question our nature's, God's nature, how then, now, and hereafter all relate.

Isn't that what the Bible is all about?

 

[Gina B]

Make that lemon bars, my favorite! Beats out fudge anyday, thanks Helen...

(hush everyone, dessert is VERY theological!)

 

[preacher]

Well..it's another day, & I hope dessert Is Over!!
Helen I'm sorry I didn' respond sooner but I was absolutly wore out from work( in case ya don't know..I'm living with a broken rib right now.)I was in bed by 8o board time.
I appreciate the response. But you still (I think) don't really see what I'm trying to get across!
We know Christ when we are saved...but it is through living in this mortal body, prayer. study, & trying to be obediant that we really come to KNOW Christ. Again I repeat that He said eternal life IS knowing the Father. We can KNOW Him NOW, or live shallow, everyday life till we go Home & then KNOW Him. He would rather we know Him NOW!!!
Why do you think I spend so much time talking about BH? God gave that squirrel to me to teach me a very important lesson. That HE is GOD He cares for me(even when I mess up miserably) He made the heavens & the earth...& all that are in them, & that I have an active part in this world...weather I want it or not. He gave me a thumb sized creature (probaly about the size of us...next to Him), totaly helpless, needing either rescue, or death. I admit at the time that I though it would be temporary. I would raise her up (if she lived) to a size where she could be released. Didn't quite work out that way. My Lord had other plans!
Some 5 month into my "deed" things changed. She was at the right size to be released, she was ready. I got up one morning to go to work, she was fine. I come home that evening...she wasn't.
I found my wife holding her under her chin & neck,
almost crying. To this day we don't know what happened, but she was paralyzed in her hips & her tail. She would'nt eat unless one of us had her,(at the time the duty fell a lot on Agee). All she could do was pull herself along on her front legs. We bothe figured she wouldn't last long, but again, though a simlple creature, my Lord had other plans. Eventualy she got to where she could use her back legs(not her feet, just the legs) & once in awhile we would see her twitch her tail.
This has been a year ago, shes still crippled in her back feet, lost part of her tail, & for a "wild" animal she is the most remarkable thing I or my wife has ever known. Kinda like us before our God. We start out fine (as babies) but somethig happens that we can't understand. We become crippled. But He doesn't quit on us. He takes care of us till (for humans this is hopefully) we come to know Him & how He DOES care for us. No matter what we do (course' we dont bite & claw!) He still cares! Plus He teaches, how to trust in Him, how to depend on Him, & for us humans again, how to dream on Him! You see that even nature itself is vital,....& I've got news for ya...nature isn't mortal. Now I know BH is, as far as her body. But God's creation is ABSOLUTLY immortal! Why do you think He made the earth so vast & wonderful! Yes to First give Him Glory (& it's better at it than we seem to be) & to fuel us toward Him, & to give us something to drive our imaginations!
sorry if this seems to be a ramble but I sincerely hope it helps you Or someone to understand our Lord better. One more thing before I have to run & get my Honey at work. God made BH to be a Squirrel, she knows that, she doesnt try to be anything else. She does her absolute best to be a squirrel(even crippled). We should try our absolute best to try to be whatever God made each of us to be, & yes every one of us is crippled to one degree or another.
Mabey you'll see why I think ya can have Heaven RIGHT HERE!!!!