Does believing play a part in Salvation ?

[robustheologian]

Not sound at all. It confuses the spirit and the body.

All men die physically on account of Adam, and will be raised physically on account of Christ.

The spirit is altogether a different matter

Not really, because of Adam all men face both physical and spiritual death, and because of Jesus, all in Him will have life–physical and spiritual.

 

[JamesL]

Not really, because of Adam all men face both physical and spiritual death, and because of Jesus, all in Him will have life–physical and spiritual.

No one faces spiritual death on account of Adam. It is not position that is sustainable through scripture.

Tertullian surmised that the spirit and body both come from the parents (Traducianism), and it was based 100% on a faulty understanding of Romans 5:12

There is no rational way of getting around the absolute universal language in Romans 5, that all men die because of Adam, and that all men are made alive because of Christ. If this passage supported spiritual death for all men because of Adam, then it absolutely means spiritual life for all men because of Christ

Here's the biggest problem for the notion that we're all born spiritually dead because of Adam. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that at death, the dust returns to the earth as it were, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Zechariah 12:1-2 also says that God places the spirit of a man within him.

One has to hold to a pretty fantastical idea of the power of Adam here then. Adam was able, with one act, to corrupt the spirits of those who God had not breathed yet? So that every breath coming from God is now corrupt?

If the spirit came from Adam, then sure. But the spirit comes from God. It is the body only which comes from Adam.

Also, if a man is born spiritually dead because of a physical relation to Adam, then so would Christ have been. He was made like us in all regards. The Roman Catholic Church realized the impossibility of Original Sin as it related to Christ. Why do you think the Immaculate Conception was fabricated?


Also, Paul stated pretty plainly in Romans 7:9-11 that he died when he understood the Law and sin came alive. He wasn't writing as a corpse, he was speaking of his spiritual death. And he didn't blame it on Adam

 

[robustheologian]

No one faces spiritual death on account of Adam. It is not position that is sustainable through scripture.

Tertullian surmised that the spirit and body both come from the parents (Traducianism), and it was based 100% on a faulty understanding of Romans 5:12

There is no rational way of getting around the absolute universal language in Romans 5, that all men die because of Adam, and that all men are made alive because of Christ. If this passage supported spiritual death for all men because of Adam, then it absolutely means spiritual life for all men because of Christ

Here's the biggest problem for the notion that we're all born spiritually dead because of Adam. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that at death, the dust returns to the earth as it were, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Zechariah 12:1-2 also says that God places the spirit of a man within him.

One has to hold to a pretty fantastical idea of the power of Adam here then. Adam was able, with one act, to corrupt the spirits of those who God had not breathed yet? So that every breath coming from God is now corrupt?

If the spirit came from Adam, then sure. But the spirit comes from God. It is the body only which comes from Adam.

Also, if a man is born spiritually dead because of a physical relation to Adam, then so would Christ have been. He was made like us in all regards. The Roman Catholic Church realized the impossibility of Original Sin as it related to Christ. Why do you think the Immaculate Conception was fabricated?


Also, Paul stated pretty plainly in Romans 7:9-11 that he died when he understood the Law and sin came alive. He wasn't writing as a corpse, he was speaking of his spiritual death. And he didn't blame it on Adam

I guess it differs on whether one embraces a covenant/federalism view of sin and redemption. Adam stood as a covenant head for the race while Christ stood as covenant head for the elect so ALL who have Adam as covenant head faces death (both spiritual and natural) and ALL who have Jesus as covenant head has justification and life (both spiritual and natural).

If death spread to all men because of Adam (Rom. 5:12), whether one believes it to be fantastical or not, the power of Adam is evident in that his sin made the whole race disobedient and condemnable.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, it is all men. Paul was writing about physical death and resurrection. GO back to the beginning of the chapter. 3 times he wrote...Having Been Justified, Having Been Reconciled. Also, in 5:5 he mentions having received the Spirit

He finished addressing the Spirit birth by verse 10.

Look at the parallels in 1Corinthians 15, where Paul told of the gospel - that Jesus died according to the scriptures. Then goes on a long treatise about the resurrection.

Same in Romans The gospel of peace is chapters 1-4. Then he went on to the resurrection, and things to happen at the time of the resurrection

You are mistaken and introducing a novelty here.You are dead wrong here.He is not speaking of the physical....but the spiritual.

All sinned and died in Adam.......by physical conception....Adam represented them 3:23

All those elected unto salvation are in saving union In Christ......by new birth......that does not include the world of the ungodly at anytime.

Draw a large circle on a piece of paper........that is all mankind dead in Adam


Now draw another large circle inside the first circle........the second circle are those elected unto salvation effectually called from death to life .....they alone are found in Christ.

 

[JamesL]

You are mistaken and introducing a novelty here.You are dead wrong here.He is not speaking of the physical....but the spiritual.

All sinned and died in Adam.......by physical conception....Adam represented them 3:23

All those elected unto salvation are in saving union In Christ......by new birth......that does not include the world of the ungodly at anytime.

Draw a large circle on a piece of paper........that is all mankind dead in Adam


Now draw another large circle inside the first circle........the second circle are those elected unto salvation effectually called from death to life .....they alone are found in Christ.

I don't need circles. your version of Christ must have been a sinner, having traced His physical lineage back to Adam.

You also don't have any understanding of Election. Neither do the Arminians

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't need circles. your version of Christ must have been a sinner, having traced His physical lineage back to Adam.

You also don't have any understanding of Election. Neither do the Arminians

You are clueless my friend.In fact you need the truth contained in those circles to make any progress at all. You try to sound so unique and defy the historic church as if you alone know something that. No one in church history has ever seen.
That is why you consistently post novelties and falsehoods.

 

[JamesL]

You are clueless my friend.In fact you need the truth contained in those circles to make any progress at all. You try to sound so unique and defy the historic church as if you alone know something that. No one in church history has ever seen.
That is why you consistently post novelties and falsehoods.

Anything prior to the Reformation seems like a novelty to you. You need to leave your traditions and get into the scriptures.

Whoa. That's actually a novel idea

 

[PreachTony]

Draw a large circle on a piece of paper........that is all mankind dead in Adam

Now draw another large circle inside the first circle........the second circle are those elected unto salvation effectually called from death to life .....they alone are found in Christ.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Just curious, Brother Icon, but how big a second circle are you proposing? Because my study of scripture seems to indicate that, even though John saw a numberless multitude in Heaven, the number finding their way into damnation is far greater.

 

[steaver]

Anything prior to the Reformation seems like a novelty to you. You need to leave your traditions and get into the scriptures.

Whoa. That's actually a novel idea

:laugh::thumbsup::applause:

 

[JamesL]

... the truth contained in those circles....

:applause:
That's the funniest thing I've read in my entire Christian life

 

[steaver]

:applause:
That's the funniest thing I've read in my entire Christian life

He's not joking! Do you not know Christians are given the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Matt 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Are you one of "them" it is not given?

 

[Don]

Did y'all seriously hijack SBM's thread and are completely ignoring him?

Now THAT'S funny....

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

Just curious, Brother Icon, but how big a second circle are you proposing?

You can make it how big you want to. In my view I make it about 3/4....

Multitudes get saved, multitudes get damned.
gen22
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

This is a large group of people described here. When people try and mock the teaching of election and predestination they scoff and speak of a chosen few.There are multitudes here spoken of.

Because my study of scripture seems to indicate that, even though John saw a numberless multitude in Heaven, the number finding their way into damnation is far greater.

I do not speculate on such a number. I know many have and still do picking out certain verses that speak of 1/3 this and 2/3 s that like in Zech.


Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

He's not joking! Do you not know Christians are given the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God?
Are you one of "them" it is not given

?

It is not a joking matter Steaver. It is true and serious. If you do not value your soul just keep it up and see how well it works out for you.

James posted this;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
... the truth contained in those circles....
That's the funniest thing I've read in my entire Christian life

If you want something funny re-read one of your posts. There is nothing funny about the circles or the truths contained in those circles.
You start out in the first circle...if you do not makeit into the second circle ...it is second death for you....that is not funny at all.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

He's not joking! Do you not know Christians are given the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are you one of "them" it is not given?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given

That is what I read here.

 

[savedbymercy]

Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth !

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


No one can believe the Truth of God without first being partakers of this Work of the Spirit, for thats His main Purpose for being sent into the World for Christ's Sake ! For its by His Work here that all for whom Christ died are given a Saving Knowledge of the Truth, that is, for all God does desire to come into the Knowledge of the Truth as stated here 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The Holy Spirit answers God's desire and will here to bring all these men to the Truth.

By this [Sanctifying] Work of the Spirit in them, they are given Spiritual discernment to embrace the Things of God, the Truth of God 1 Cor 2:12-14

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.[Which things the Truth set forth]

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You see that ? The Knowledge of the Truth to save us cannot be known apart from the Spirit's Work, because they are things spiritually discerned.

He is then to them [all whom Christ died] a Spirit of Wisdom as per Eph 1:17-18 58

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

A Hope called to by the Gospel ! Col 1:5

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

 

[PreachTony]

You can make it how big you want to. In my view I make it about 3/4....

Multitudes get saved, multitudes get damned.

This is a large group of people described here. When people try and mock the teaching of election and predestination they scoff and speak of a chosen few.There are multitudes here spoken of.

I do not speculate on such a number. I know many have and still do picking out certain verses that speak of 1/3 this and 2/3 s that like in Zech.

I was just curious your thoughts. As I tried to point out with the scripture I provided, I believe more will wind up in damnation than in eternal life in glory. Don't get me wrong, the number in glory is exceedingly great. As we said, John could not number them. But I still believe more will turn away from Him. I would probably lean more towards the 1/3 mark, but I admit I'm not basing that on any particular scripture.

I hope you didn't take this as an attempt on my part to "mock" anyone or anything. I may not agree with your theology, but I don't think it's right to mock someone over an issue like that.

 

[JamesL]

Did y'all seriously hijack SBM's thread and are completely ignoring him?

Now THAT'S funny....

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was just curious your thoughts. As I tried to point out with the scripture I provided, I believe more will wind up in damnation than in eternal life in glory. Don't get me wrong, the number in glory is exceedingly great. As we said, John could not number them. But I still believe more will turn away from Him. I would probably lean more towards the 1/3 mark, but I admit I'm not basing that on any particular scripture.

I hope you didn't take this as an attempt on my part to "mock" anyone or anything. I may not agree with your theology, but I don't think it's right to mock someone over an issue like that.

PT
I believe we are still the early church......many more to be harvested.

 

[PreachTony]

I believe we are still the early church......many more to be harvested.

Yet another difference between our respective outlooks, Brother Icon. I've always considered us to be in the last days. Even though people are still being saved, we are also seeing greater and greater numbers turning and fleeing from the church.