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Does Bible say that Gospel requires Creationism?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Let me guess- you heard the gospel given WITHOUT actually looking at the texts that hardwire the role of Christ as Creator to His Role as Savior and SHOW "the ETERNAL GOSPEL" to CONTAIN the teaching that "God MADE the heavens the earth the sea AND the springs of water" --
EVEN though Scripture -- yes even NT scripture shows this to be the case --
How do you read these texts?
Christ as Creator is the foundation stone of the Gospel of John
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The Scope and domain of the Creator – is the scope of the Gospel solution.
Col 1
Speaking of Christ - ( see vs 15)
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Worship is the duty of mankind toward our creator - according to the "everlasting gospel" message of Rev 14
Rev 14:6-7
6And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."
My argument in the OP is not that a careless reading of the Gospel that ignores NT scripture COULD not come up with a Creator-devoid kinda gospel. My point was to LOOK at the inconvenient facts of scripture and THEN show an informed review of the texts as they show what is actually the foundation for the Gospel.
in Christ,
Bob
EVEN though Scripture -- yes even NT scripture shows this to be the case --
How do you read these texts?
Christ as Creator is the foundation stone of the Gospel of John
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The Scope and domain of the Creator – is the scope of the Gospel solution.
Col 1
Speaking of Christ - ( see vs 15)
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Worship is the duty of mankind toward our creator - according to the "everlasting gospel" message of Rev 14
Rev 14:6-7
6And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."
My argument in the OP is not that a careless reading of the Gospel that ignores NT scripture COULD not come up with a Creator-devoid kinda gospel. My point was to LOOK at the inconvenient facts of scripture and THEN show an informed review of the texts as they show what is actually the foundation for the Gospel.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Agnus_Dei said:
Whahuh?? Saved without God??
The point of John 1 and Col 2 and Rev 14 is NOT "God is not creater unless you read and believe this text".
The Point of John STARTING his Gospel with the role of God as creator is NOT because until he writes that chapter (and until you read it) then you really don't NEED a Creator to have a savior.
The point he is making is that we needed our savior to BE the same as our Creator -- whether we KNEW it or NOT!
So the question I asked "remains" --
Again...
Yes or No --- Are the souls of those slain because of the word of God underneath the altar asking when their blood will be avenged?
If you're a coward, you will paste a lot more of your junk. If you're not a coward, you will answer Yes or No. [and the drum rolls]
Yes or No --- Are the souls of those slain because of the word of God underneath the altar asking when their blood will be avenged?
If you're a coward, you will paste a lot more of your junk. If you're not a coward, you will answer Yes or No. [and the drum rolls]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Alcott said:
you are simply "dancing around the point" I already showed that your assumption about inserting-anything you like into any part of scripture that does not please darwinism can not be "justified" by your constant reference that Revelation is apocalyptic and has some symbols in it.
That has nothing to do with the texts given from law (4th comm), from history (Gen 1-2) from the Gospels (John 1:14) from the writings of Paul (col 1:15-16) and from other portions of scripture that can not simply be "wished away".
Why not adress the texts give instead of constantly dancing around the point?
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Alcott said:
As I have shown repeatedly - your reference to symbols in apocalyptic literature does nothing to save you from the horribly contrived and strained eisegesis you must practice in law (4th commandment) and in history (Gen 1-2:3) and the Gospels (John 1:1-5) and the doctrinal teaching of Paul in Col 1:15-17.
Why not address the point?
Why keep dancing around?
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Moses wrote civil laws for a Theocracy -- we do not live in a Theocracy today. But be assured that "death meant death" no story telling. The text means what it says.
I don't see how this is helping you in the least when it comes to a proper exegetical rendering of Gen 1 or when it comes to epxlaining the centrality of the Creator role of Christ in John 1 as being foundational to the Gospel.
Your problem is uniquely problematic in that the 4th commandment - the Sabbath commandment (does not specify death by the way) states "for in six days the Lord MADE the HEAVENS and the earth the sea and ALL that is in them and rested the seventh day". This is LAW -- not apocalyptic writing. There is no escaping the exegetical rendering and exactness of the intent of the author.
You sling ad hominem "coward this" and "liar that" as if this is solving the problem of your efforts to marry atheist darwinism to scripture. It is not.
in Christ,
Bob
I don't see how this is helping you in the least when it comes to a proper exegetical rendering of Gen 1 or when it comes to epxlaining the centrality of the Creator role of Christ in John 1 as being foundational to the Gospel.
Your problem is uniquely problematic in that the 4th commandment - the Sabbath commandment (does not specify death by the way) states "for in six days the Lord MADE the HEAVENS and the earth the sea and ALL that is in them and rested the seventh day". This is LAW -- not apocalyptic writing. There is no escaping the exegetical rendering and exactness of the intent of the author.
You sling ad hominem "coward this" and "liar that" as if this is solving the problem of your efforts to marry atheist darwinism to scripture. It is not.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Speaking of substantive posts for the subject -- let's bring back this unnanswered post
How do you read these texts?
Christ as Creator is the foundation stone of the Gospel of John
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The Scope and domain of the Creator – is the scope of the Gospel solution.
Col 1
Speaking of Christ - ( see vs 15)
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Worship is the duty of mankind toward our creator - according to the "everlasting gospel" message of Rev 14
Rev 14:6-7
6And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."
My argument in the OP is not that a careless reading of the Gospel that ignores NT scripture COULD not come up with a Creator-devoid kinda gospel. My point was to LOOK at the inconvenient facts of scripture and THEN show an informed review of the texts as they show what is actually the foundation for the Gospel.
in Christ,
Bob
How do you read these texts?
Christ as Creator is the foundation stone of the Gospel of John
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The Scope and domain of the Creator – is the scope of the Gospel solution.
Col 1
Speaking of Christ - ( see vs 15)
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Worship is the duty of mankind toward our creator - according to the "everlasting gospel" message of Rev 14
Rev 14:6-7
6And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."
My argument in the OP is not that a careless reading of the Gospel that ignores NT scripture COULD not come up with a Creator-devoid kinda gospel. My point was to LOOK at the inconvenient facts of scripture and THEN show an informed review of the texts as they show what is actually the foundation for the Gospel.
in Christ,
Bob
Your question Bob is: Does the Bible say that the Gospel “requires” Creationism? The “Gospel” being preached is all about bringing one to Christ and Salvation. Not about forcing Creationism as defined by you. Creationism has nothing to do with the saving power of the Gospel. Again I was raised a Baptist and have seen many people saved by the Gospel being preached and never once did someone confess Christ as their Lord and Savior b/c of “Creationism”. Sorry Bob, even if I agree with Creationism and a literal view of Genesis; still the true foundation of the Gospel is Christ crucified, buried and being raised from the dead according to the Scriptures…the Greek word for Gospel is Good News…and that’s what Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 is the Good News!
All we know for a fact is that God is the Almighty maker of Heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible…and to an extent I can see the Gospel sharing this, but how God chose to do it, and how long as define by Creationism has no bearing on the Gospel.
InXC
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All we know for a fact is that God is the Almighty maker of Heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible…and to an extent I can see the Gospel sharing this, but how God chose to do it, and how long as define by Creationism has no bearing on the Gospel.
InXC
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Agnus_Dei said:
Wonderful storytelling - but the challenge was to actually address the NT texts that DO put Creation at the heart of the Gospel as we see in John1 and Col 1 and Rev 14:6-7.
In Rev 14:6-7 we see the "everlasting gospel" the "eternal gospel" and the heart of it is the creative role of Christ.
in Col 1 Paul again directs us to the heart of the Gospel - and there he shows us the creative role of Christ.
John 1 starts HIS GOSPEL with the creative role of Christ.
This is the first point "not to dodge".
The next point is that we have "LAW" as in the case of Exodus 20:8-11 using the exact "creationism" model that Bible believing Christians use today. This is not apocalyptic use - it is law just as in Gen 1 it is history.
have another go at actually addressing the texts listed.
in Christ,
Bob